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Full-Text Version of Interview with Marc De Mesel on Investment, Women and Bitcoin Cash

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4 weeks ago

The video version you can watch on Read.Cash, Odysee, or Youtube

Andrew:  Hello everyone. My name is Andrew, CryptoTexty channel and today I’m very happy to meet Marc de Mesel. I was asking for an interview for several months. Marc is a very known crypto investor, actually a very interesting investor. I follow his youtube channel. Basically to summarize the idea of investment is - HODL. So as you said: «You don't sell your winners you hodl them, and you need to sell the losers quickly». That’s almost exact quotation. 

Also, Marc is known as an entrepreneur in the crypto field, a supporter of several Bitcoin Cash projects: ReadCash, NoiseCash and we'll talk about this more. But my first question is: let's speak a little bit about investment. You are very open about them, you always tell like what do you invest in, like Bitcoin cash is one of the biggest parts and maybe can you do a summary of what changed recently? What we are doing in this field now? 

Marc: Actually the positions I take are quite slow, like every half year or so.

Thank you also CryptoTexty for the interview, that's very cool. It's a long time ago I did one I think. So it takes half a year usually to really find a new investment. Some investments last for many years, others are shorter. But what are my last moves? Two months ago I sold half of my oil tankers and I also bought some more Bitcoin Cash (BCH) but not to stash myself but to donate and invest in Bitcoin Cash projects. I cannot invest more in cryptocurrency because I'm following the Kelly Criterion where I very disciplined allocate capital based on a mathematical scientifically proven formula on how much can you allocate. If you want to optimize your returns the Kelly Criterion is the formula. I can only invest in something when it’s collapsing because then the risk-reward is very good. The potential reward is very high and there's fear in the market and it's a good time to buy. And then I use the Kelly Criterion to allocate. But then when markets recover and it goes up usually it makes no rational sense to invest more, because it already goes up a lot. For example, in crypto my last investment was bumping to 40 percent or so, bumping to 50%. No, actually I bumped it to 60% corona crash. That was in March last year. So then I allocated actually 64% of my portfolio to crypto. And it's still 65 today because it went up a lot. But my other investment was 35%. At the time it was Tesla options and Tesla stock and options on Amazon. And that also went up a lot. Things that have changed in my portfolio, but both of them ended up the same amount about. So the allocation is still the same. I have not invested more in crypto. I cannot bump it up. So yeah, that’s how I work. 

 

Andrew: Great, thanks for sharing. I think the 60% is a really big amount of portfolio for a professional investor, to be 60% in crypto. Well, some crypto enthusiasts have 100% in crypto. And also in some countries, for example in Ukraine, we don't have like really stock market. Well, it exists, but it is like you know, like in such a bad condition. For example, I have some stocks from the 90s of some factory, but I never got any dividends, they sent the letters by the ordinary mail. I can’t sell them. Maybe at some point, some investor comes and maybe I'll do. So I foresee that tokenization would be like the future of the stock exchange and in a way maybe tokens are in a way shares of the crypto projects. And you mentioned that it's good to buy when something is collapsing and what about crypto projects? Usually, when they are collapsing, some of them might not recover at all. 

 

Marc: It depends on what phase of the market you're in. Of course, when it's collapsing and it’s at the start of the bear market -  no that's not a time to buy indeed, because a bear market in crypto will last 2-3 years. In the past and when it starts collapsing, actually it collapsed a lot more. Many projects go down with 95%, some 99% actually or 98%. These are tremendous losses and so the first collapse is only a 50% drawdown, but then to go to 90% that's losing again 80% percent and again. And then going to 99 is losing again 90%. Of course, you have to be very aware of where you are in the cycle.

   And of course, this does not apply. You have to really pick bottoms and big tops and be very aware where we are likely in the cycle. For crypto, for example, we breached the all-time high of 800 billion 2-3 years ago was that a high set. And then we had a bear market. We breached this but it took two years to breach it from the bottom. The bottom was already at the end of 2018 in December. And we're now in 2021. So we've been building this bull market already for two years and almost a half. It took actually two years. It was in January this year that we breached the all-time high of 800 billion. And what you see is that in the past once you breach the all-time high, it starts to go very fast. And it takes only half a year to one-year maximum before you reach the top. So right now it's likely that this year 2021 we will reach the top of this bull market. And I did some other calculations

 

Andrew: Yeah that's interesting to ask and probably the viewers are interested in this. What's your approximate suggestion till when the bull market would be? What is the top? Kind of the end of this year? 

 

Marc: No, I think it's going to be much earlier. Because it goes parabolic. And from the Troll chart that I share from time to time, we will likely go to about 800 % valuation versus the trend line this cycle. And we're already at 300% or so. I think it will be already in half-year max, so not at the end of the year, but in the middle of the year. A little bit after the middle of the year in maybe

August, September. That's my best estimate but of course, this is just probabilities extrapolating past trends. Yeah, I think it will be earlier. We went from 1 trillion to 2 trillion in three months and we will likely go from 2 trillion to 3 trillion not in three months but maybe in one month or two months. And it goes parabolic. The last gains are made the quickest. So you always underestimate how fast it goes up at the end. And it always goes up much higher than you expect. And so that's the phase that's coming now. I estimate we will get a peak of around 7 trillion. We have 2 trillion already it's not that far off. 

 

Andrew: It's also interesting to ask: You already said that your biggest part of crypto portfolio is Bitcoin Cash and um you also have Ethereum, and what other crypto? Some other crypto projects? I think you said it not once that it's good to invest at the early stage into good teams. So some new crypto projects which emerge kind of do some pre-sale and some early-stage seed investment. Do you check these opportunities?

 

Marc: No and I have really failed in this crypto cycle, in this bull market to invest in small projects. I haven't done it and it's a failure on my part because much much money has been made there. And I've been lazy. Of course, I invested much more money these days than in the past.  So you start to invest differently also. You look more at the big picture and for me, priorities are very different. I really need to protect my capital a lot more these days than in the past. So I look at it like I really want uncorrelated investments to crypto, that's very important for me. And that has taken really my time and my energy over the past two years. So I have not invested any energy into optimizing my crypto portfolio and investing in smaller projects. So I have no value to offer there. People have given me much advice, like «You should invest in DeFi projects» and actually I looked into it a month, two months ago. I asked someone to look into it for me and give his opinion. And I looked in it a little bit myself. I looked at Uniswap, for example. And I agree, I understand like yeah DeFi will pump a lot likely. That's the new game in town but I couldn't see…like it already went up so much and I wasn't convinced that wow that's a great opportunity for me. But, of course, the amount two months later it does the 10x again and it's now in the top 10. So I was wrong not to invest, I should have invested. But because I'm busy so little with it, I don't see the opportunity, the gains that were made already scare me. But I have to also say like I find a lot of these projects don’t have strong fundamentals. For example, you need to absolutely build on Ethereum if i understand correctly and Ethereum is not doing well like the transaction fees are exploding. It's like building a house on a foundation that's showing roth.  That's not smart because you need a good foundation to build a building on. And Ethereum is failing to scale in a timely manner: transaction fees are exploding and so DeFi on Ethereum is not practically possible. 

So these projects are pumped into the billions, like Uniswap is worth, I don’t know,  about 30 billion or so now. But even when I looked at it when it was

worth 3 billion, I thought for me that was not an attractive investment. But of course, I was wrong price wise and that's the case about many projects. I said the same about Cardano or I didn’t believe in it, or about EOS. And at the time I said and I was wrong, they pumped a lot. At the time I said the same about IOTA in the previous bull cycle. I was very wrong, it pumped a lot. I've missed many and actually, I even said the thing about Ethereum when it did its ICO. Actually, I made the strategic mistake to invest in NXT at the time instead of Ethereum.  I've missed so many opportunities. I could have been a lot richer today if I would have been much more generous and taken on much more risk during crypto bull cycles. 

 

Andrew: So diversification: to invest in some bigger amount of crypto projects.

 

Marc: Yes, so that's the case. On the other hand, my average return is about 50% per year since 2008. Those are tremendous returns that I still am able to achieve despite not taking that much risk. So I am a top investor if you look at my returns. But compared to many crypto investors actually, my returns are low. But you also have to look at the total lifespan of an investor. Like there are so many crypto investors that have tremendous returns during the bull market but almost lose it all during a bear market. And that’s why you have to look at the compound annual growth rate. That's why I always look at that number, like what's your average return per year since you started. Because that will also include your very bad years and it's the end result is what's counted. Because if you succeed in a 50% per year it doesn’t matter. You can start with thousand euro or dollar or ten thousand dollars. You will become very rich if you're able to continue that. But the reality is that many crypto investors, they do make lots of money during crypto bull market, but after that, they lose it all. They actually don't become professional investors over time. They don't learn the valuable lessons they could learn and they end up doing other things in their life than becoming a rich investor. So I have to look at that also.

 

Andrew: - And your approach is that you work only with your capital, your funds? Or do sometimes people come to you and say like: «Oh Marc, you're a great investor. Can you do something like with my money? Or maybe to create some fund and run it?

Marc: No, I've invested with mine. I was looking to inherit some money when I was young and I've always invested with that.  But that’s an opportunity here because I was lucky to inherit some money. But if I wouldn't have, my life part would have been different.  And if I really want to invest, I would also have looked much more into attracting capital from other people. Because there's so many people who have money to invest and that don't know much anything about it and fail. And they are happy to give their money to you and you’re able to charge performance fees. That really can make a big difference in your personal wealth. It's a very good way to start as an investor - to help other people to invest and charge decently for it also. 

 

Andrew: In a way, you are helping people for free just doing your videos, your publications on Twitter. Probably it seems to me that you decided to work only with your own funds because it gives more freedom. So there is nobody you need to report to, you don't need to be accountable. Probably that's the reason? 

 

Marc: Yes. Over time if you're a successful investor it's not worth doing that anymore, helping other people. Because most people, the problem is they are bad in investing…  

So when it starts crashing, they also don't want to sell. And then after it's been crashing for a year or two years then and it's minus 99%, then they want to sell it all. And there's no reason they will listen to that you say «No, that’s a bad idea like now it's really not time to sell». Fuck it, they sell it all. And so it's very hard to keep the fund successful because most people are truly stupid and remain stupid. It's very frustrating as a fund manager. You need to actually look for smart capital also, as a fund manager. You will start with stupid capital but in the end, you do have to find smart capital that understands these fundamentals of investing. And, of course, the problem is legislation. Running a fund - there’s so many laws and regulations that you have to understand that can put you into trouble. And every country has different regulations. You end up uh discovering that you should actually run a Hedge fund. Then you will fall out of most regulations. But that also means you can only attract investors that are rich and a lot of capital to invest. They need to invest minimum, let's say 200 000 euro. You cannot make any publicity anywhere. That's usually like if you want to follow within the lines of what you need to do and that's running a very professional fund. It's not easy it’s a lifetime focus - to do all that successfully. That's worth it if you don't have money. But if you have money already it's not worth it. Because instead of putting only energy into that you can focus on investing it yourself. And it's a very big difference. Like running a successful hedge fund is about returns, but it's also very much about attracting capital and about marketing and about being smart about that. That's very different than being a successful investor. And it's two different qualities you need to develop. So what you see is that actually if you really become a good investor even if you have starting a hedge fund you will actually close your fund for new capital. Because you can't deploy all that capital that new capital. And your energy goes like it's just a challenge to invest all that money into the markets profitably. And you don't want to give it away. If you really become a good investor why would you give like even if you get 20% of the returns, it's just not worth it. That's what you see with professional hedge funds. That they basically end up closing and just invest their own capital. So you can as well skip the whole process if you have some money yourself. The world has changed a lot with crypto. Crypto has allowed small investors with very little money to become rich on their own. That was not possible in the past with the stock market.  So I don't think it's worth it. What you should do is just really focus on the small projects and take high risk, go all in and jump from one success into another. Or hold at least one that will do 100x minimum. And that's how you can make from thousand or ten thousand dollars you can make hundreds or a million dollars in like the course of only 2-3 years in crypto. That's what I've seen several people do. And if you're done smart about a bull-bear cycle and you don't hodl it all at the top and lose again 95%, but you lock in also profits around the top - then you can do the next cycle the same but start from much higher. I think that's the way to go for most crypto investors.

 

Andrew: Yeah, great, thanks for sharing your idea. Interesting to ask - Do you invest and do you consider investing in Proof-of-stake coins, such as Cardano, Algorand, Zilliqa, where you can also apart from the expected rising price, you can have some stable income from staking. What's your view on this? 

 

Marc: Yeah, I've invested a lot in NXT at the time, that was the first 100% Proof-of-stake coin. So I think it's a great invention - Proof-of-stake. It is superior to Proof-of-work in many ways. But for me… I just got attracted to Bitcoin Cash to invest in, even though it’s not proof-of-stake. I think that that's not the most important part of a cryptocurrency. How do you secure your building? It has to of course keep standing, but it's not that important how exactly that was achieved or how exactly you achieve burglars to stay out. What's much more important for the success of a building is how does it look, how does it function, how is it marketed. That will decide its success much more than how it's actually built if you dig into the architecture of the engineering. Yes I believe it's a great invention and it makes lots of sense but I think the success of the cryptocurrency will depend much more on other factors. Basically, you need to get adoption. The users don't care about whether it's proof-of-stake or proof-of-work, they care about how useful is that currency, what can I do with it, how much profits can I make with it. That's what’s important.

 

Andrew: Yeah, basically skin in the game approach. So for example if you’re using one particular currency if you are very active in that community that's of course reasonable to hold at least part of the investments there. Because otherwise, it means that you don't believe in it and in its success. You are very very known in the Bitcoin Cash community. You actually supported two projects. I think these projects are important not only for the Bitcoin or Bitcoin Cash community but for the general crypto audience and even beyond. Projects like Read.cash and Noise.cash - they are affordable for everyone. I'm actually an active user of both projects. On Read.cash once you upvoted my article with hundred bucks -  thanks for that. And I invited, I just checked I have almost 50 referrals on Read.cash. Part of them are not active but some of them they are actually writing and earning money and I have like every day have some cash. It’s usually a few bucks or even few cents but it's really something which is going on. And firstly I would like to share one DeFi idea in relation to this project. I agree with your critical point on DeFi and for me it was like DeFi: I understand it and that’s people with good money can make even bigger money. That's how it works: you can stake tokens, stake coins, loan. But if it's somebody new with let's imagine no money or no tokens, no crypto usage. They can’t actually loan somewhere because they don't have USDT which you need to lock. I was thinking that

DeFi is not really helping the mass adoption. It's helpful for some people with experience. And here it comes to the point of collateral. If it's somebody new what can they offer as a collateral? And actually, Read.cash can offer the collateral because in this case - You, the person, your blog can become your collateral. Let's imagine if the person earns let's say maybe 100 dollars per month and it is sustainable. we can see it already during the year, and there are some affiliate income tips. So probably by locking the profile and the future profits he or she can maybe loan $500 and get it instantly from the fund. You invested so much into the Read.cash fund, there were hundreds of thousands of dollars, I think, the last time I saw it when it was on the site. It was something closer to the million of dollars in Bitcoin Cash. So just sharing this idea. What do you think about it? 

 

Marc: Yeah, it’s a good idea, I agree with you. But Read.cash earnings and Noise.cash earnings are still coming, a big part still comes from the fund. Of course to borrow against that it's like having being a company where most of your income comes from one customer. That’s not a good foundation for a company because the customer falls away - you have no income. And that's still the case with Read.cash - you have there the random rewarder that tips many articles but that’s actually coming from the fund. And when I browsed through it I noticed that most of the earnings from Read.cash writers comes from the random reward. That means that if you would ask someone like «Hey do do you want to lend against my earnings I made in the past?». And then if he's smart he will look at the how certain is that you will make that money in the future. If it's coming from one person basically, that is not so certain. So I think it's a good idea but it should grow first more. Like a company has only one customer should find more customers first before it has a strong business and before somebody will also be able willing to lend money to that company without high risk. So that would be my response to that. 

 

Andrew: That’s interesting about Read cash, interesting to to speak more. I'm present on all crypto blogs which exist and also this interview it will be shared on all crypto blogs, around 10 of them. One of my first sites where I started to earn crypto was Steemit at that time. Now Steemit is almost dead, maybe you know that story, and now the real Steemit is Hive, and there are also projects like Leo Finance finance built on top of Hive. Each of crypto-blogs has its own specific and the Read.cash is really one of my favorite. What I think is important is the community. Of course my articles there are not so noticeable, but it can come and it gives the opportunity for all writers, all the authors to bring their audience there. Because that's what I'm saying to people: «Okay, don't expect that you will post some photos, some publications about your life and you will earn a lot of Bitcoin. Maybe you will earn just a small fee from a random upvoter and that's it. But centralized blog platforms don't pay you at all, they monetize your data, and they sometimes ban». That's why thanks a lot for supporting Read.cash. What is now the situation with the fund? Because it kind of disappeared from the site and so basically the pledge is all yours? So is this investment for you or like a charity? Because for me it seems that this is like really charity. You explained in one of the videos that it gives more usage for Bitcoin Cash and more transactions, more people and on the long term it also brings your investments higher in price. 

 

Marc: No, it's not charity. It’s really my self-interest: I'm protecting investing a lot in Bitcoin Cash. I have lots of Bitcoin Cash and it needs to go up in value. And how it will go up in value the only ways if it succeeds in getting adopted by many more people and people that also value Bitcoin Cash and want to stash it and save it themselves. That's why the value will go up. So how do you achieve that? That’s the challenge every cryptocurrency has. But I believe that you don't achieve that for example by doing giveaways. Giveaways… the problem is.. people when you give them something for free what will they do with it? The problem is it's easily hackable. Like it's if you want to market a perfume it's wise to give a small sample of perfume in the store where people are shopping for perfume and then you give them a small sample they can try it. Yeah, that's a free giveaway that can work.

But in the world of the internet and the digital world, it's so easy to fake many user accounts and get thousands of free samples. And that way what is your return? Well it is not possible in a physical store that somebody gets thousands of free samples. But you can be sure that someone will try it even in a physical store. Some people will try to get much free samples just to use it and they will never buy a single bottle. So even in the physical world, you have many people that exploit such marketing schemes. Then digital world is like a thousand times worse. Because there's no face, there's no physical presence. So giveaways have failed. Many cryptos have tried giveaways.

I invested for example in Obyte at the time, they also did lots of giveaways. There was Auroracoin that did giveaways to the whole country of Iceland. But all these schemes have failed because it's get exploited and dumped on the market. And you don't have real adoption so the value of the coin goes down due to it. Because it's a failed marketing scheme. So how can you get cryptocurrency in the hands of the people to try it it's very difficult. 

 

So I think that when I discovered Read.Cash it was already up and running for half a year and it was just tipping each other. And I thought: «Yeah, that's great. Here i can tip people». That actually creates value. So it's not a giveaway, it’s a reward, I'm rewarding people for their work. That’s, of course, working - that's how a currency gets adopted. Because when people create value and they get paid even if it's a tip, a voluntary tip -  they do receive it as like it's not a freebee that they receive. No, they actually put work in it and so they value what they got on average. They're not going to just dump it in the market and spend. Because they actually had to work for it. And so that's why I started tipping a lot on Read.cash because that's the right way to spread a new currency - to start to pay people with it.  And of course, that's the philosophy of Bitcoin Cash. Roger Ver, for example, has done also with BTC at the time. And continue to do later at BCH is to pay people with that currency. And so in his company, for example, he pays everybody with Bitcoin (before BTC, now BCH). Because that's the way to get it adopted - is to pay people with it. And possibly pay them more. Like to give them the option: «Okay, if you want fiat I'll give you the normal price that you agreed. If you're willing to accept Bitcoin - I’ll give you five percent more». And that's the profitable transaction because I'm invested in Bitcoin so it will go up in value and I make a profit. Even though I pay people more, I still make a profit on it. So yeah, Read,cash is a genius invention, but most of all the problem is it needs to be user-friendly. That's what I miss in most of these blogging websites. Like you need to sign up and and the signup process is cumbersome and the interface is not very clear. So you need to actually put some study into the platform to understand how it all works. And for me that's not good, like that will not reach mass adoption. It's very difficult to reach mass adoption because it requires so much work to simplify a product or service to the level that the common man that's stupid understands it and can use it. When I saw Read.cash I thought: «Wow, this guy knows how to build a simple interface that works, that people understand immediately». The way you could tip there was immediately. You sign up just by email and it's done. There was not even a confirmation, you didn't even have to go to your email box to validate your email. No, you just fill in the name, password and you start. Putting some Bitcoin Cash in the account worked perfectly. With my Bitcoin.com wallet I could just send some Bitcoin Cash, it immediately appeared. And when I want to tip someone - I just click on the bottom of the article, I can choose how much. One click - boonk and it's there. It just worked very well and it was visually very attractive so I started using it a lot. Then later the founder Simon, because I was tipping the most on the platform, proposed to do a fund. And I didn't like that. The idea was like the fund will tip people. Not me, but the fund will do it automatically.

And I thought like: «No, no, I don't want this to turn into a giveaway». But he was explaining actually it's an algorithm that will study who is creating quality. It is basically automatic fund tipping, but with an algorithm. I start to see like actually, that makes sense because for me it's lots of work to check these articles. Actually, I'm missing 95% or 99% of the users, I'm not even seeing their articles. So actually it makes sense to automate this with algorithms.

That's how I got attracted to also sponsor the fund. I did that and it was open for half a year or so that others could also tip fund, but few did. So okay, he closed the fund again and he has more than enough money in the fund to last many years. So that keeps ongoing. And of course, it’s Bitcoin Cash that's in the fund. So if it goes up in value then the fund has a lot more to spend, which has been happening also. Well, you could say it's a mixture of giving but also self-interest. The same like you build a road in town. If there's no government, then somebody needs to do it. It's to the benefit of many people that can use those roads. But the one that builds it, if that’s the rich guy in town-  if he builds the road actually there's lots of self-interest into it also because he can use it himself.  And he will get lots of praise from many people: «Well, thank you for the road», and he gets lots of positive points, positive reputation in the community that will bring back a lot of value also. 

 

Andrew: This reminded me a story that a few years ago before the elections in Ukraine one guy who was running for a member of parliament built a road and then he wasn’t elected so he came and destroyed the road. 

He built it in the particular region where he was running. But yeah such things rarely happen in fact. And about Read.cash - do you personally read a lot articles there? 

 

Marc: Yes, I do go there, but because it's growing, there's many articles, the percentage I'm able to read is very low. But of course, I skim on based on the titles. It's only when the title is interesting that I look into it.

Then if the article is interesting. But sometimes I read article: often I skim an article and I go straight to the to the bottom to look at the conclusion of the article. Often articles are also short. There's also a lot of basically indirect begging people liking to please me because they know I'm a big tipper and trying to stroke my ego. Of course, I have an ego and it may work sometimes. 

 

Andrew: For example, they can see a pattern that you uploaded many articles which explain why Bitcoin Cash is great or why Bitcoin Cash is better than Bitcoin, why it's better than other currencies. So they can see the pattern: Okay if I write something like this, I explain the reasons, of course, it shouldn't be repeating, so there is like really high probability that if you notice it and to notice they can take you into twitter, they can comment to you in Noise.cash, there is a much bigger probability that you will upvote that particular article. 

 

Marc: That's true but I’m looking for authenticity. If you look at the top tipped articles that received ten thousand dollars, three or four articles like that. And then there are some that say five thousand dollars. That it is from people that are authentic, that are active on other platforms spreading Bitcoin Cash, have written many other articles. I do study people's profiles and histories and reputation and their other work before I will do a tip so big. Because yeah, it's an investment also. Many people try to um trick the system and try to trick me and for example spamming me on twitter and telegram: «Hey, can you read this, can you read that». I'm not even looking at that because it's annoying for me like. I can't use my social media, my telegram because you're all spamming me. So if you do that I'm not going to click, you’re just wasting your time. I'm just looking like all users at Read.cash on the home page and looking at the titles. And if something interests me - I dig into it. I rarely click on Reddit, they're also spamming lots of articles but I'm also not looking into that. Except when there's already on Reddit comments about the article when they are able to get traction on the Reddit. Then maybe I will click it also.  So there's a lot of spamming going on that I certainly don’t reward. 

 

Andrew: Yeah let's come to the Noise.cash, the relatively new service connected to Read.cash. I like to call it a Crypto Twitter.  This interview I  didn't announce it on Twitter, it’s running now streaming with Restream on Twitter but I announced it on the Noise.cash. I have only 50 followers there, so really few tips. In one of the videos I think in the beginning of the year you mentioned that it's spending on a Noise.cash a thousand dollars a day.

Maybe now even more. And the system (I’m speaking it to the people who might not know this site) is that every day the tips are generated for you.

I don't know exactly the algorithm someday I get maybe 10 cents, someday only two cents and I can send the tips to others. So the tips are generated from that fund. And is it like the same fund which is running now for both Read.cash and Noise.cash. So where the money coming from? 

 

Marc: Yeah, it’s the same. But a lot more money is spent on Noise.cash than on Read.cash. I think Read.cash is $1000 and Noise.cash is $4000 spent per day. This is totally the decision of Simon, the founder. He has upped it to these levels and he can up it more, especially if Bitcoin Cash would go up in value, it will be possible. But there's also a big difference. 

In Read.cash the reviewing of authors is done much better and manually. So it's much harder to to to spam the system in Read.cash and start to earn tips from the fund from the random rewarder. It's only when you prove to be a valuable author that writes real content. But on Noise.cash it's with an algorithm and so it’s easier to trick it. But it's also micro tips, it's a different approach. Even if the algorithm is wrong in tippings as spammers and a low-value content, they only get micro tips. So it's okay to be more wrong there and it allows for faster growth. Also because manually reviewing uh is lots of work and costs lots of money, need to hire lots of people for that. Using algorithms is the right way forward. Of course, it's not profitable for Bitcoin Cash, for me to give money to people that don't create value, because they actually will also just dump the Bitcoin cash and basically drain value away from the system. So that's why I actually really liked that the Noise.cash team made some changes just a couple days ago who they will tip with the fund. They basically eliminated a lot of users that create low value content or just outright spam. And as a consequence, the fund expands per day still the same. People that post quality content making a lot more now. Actually, I was surprised to see but yesterday I just announced the live show I got $40 in tips there. I don't know how come that and it's more than 50 tippers that tipped me. Before I would only get like one dollar maybe two dollars. So it went up a lot. Is it maybe because one person tipped me a lot, I don't know. Of course by cutting out lots of low value content the free tips now go to less people but they do earn all more. I think that was a very good move of Noise.cash. I think it's going very very well and I hope that many investors, especially bigger ones also start donating to those funds. Simon has tried to raise more funds from Bitcoin Cash investors, big ones but failed to raise funds. But I do think this is one of the most efficient ways to basically spread Bitcoin Cash adoption. Because it's very very difficult to get it into hands of value creators but the Read.cash is really succeeding in that and Noise.cash also. So it's a really good investment for a Bitcoin Cash investor, especially if you have a big stash. If you're rich then it’s really worth it. Because you can't do this yourself, you need a smart guy that builds platforms where you can filter out people that create valuable work. Simon with Read.cash and Noise.cash have proven to do so. So I hope during this bull market Bitcoin Cash will likely pump a lot and that many of the people that become wealthy with Bitcoin Cash decide to donate a piece to platforms like this. And there are many other opportunities also to donate, to really boost the adoption of Bitcoin Cash.

 

Andrew: Yeah, I agree with you. I’m an active user of both websites and I'm recommending them. I have two last questions. First, NFT as investment (Non-Fungible Tokens). Because it seems that it’s really a trend now. A lot of people are crazy, they start like producing NFTs, checking the opportunities, buying, selling. The second question is - you have interesting philosophy about women as an investment. So these two topics for this interview. Firstly about NFT. Is it on your radar as an investor?

 

Marc: No, I have totally ignored this trend and I don't have any valuable things to say on it. I don't know what's going on in the NFT space so I really can't comment on it.

 

Andrew: Yeah and let's uh finish this interview with some thoughts about women as an investment. On your channel you say that you like women, you like cars. Maybe the typical person from non-crypto world as he imagines the crypto-entrepreneur: you are the typical model for this. You like Lambos, you are driving a lot of Lambos. And let's speak a little about this. 

 

Marc: Yeah, I do like. I bought a Lamborghini after my first success in cryptocurrency, investing in Bitcoin in 2012, for 10% percent of my portfolio when it was only like $10 dollars a coin.  In 2013 uh we had another bubble in crypto world. So it was the first time I made money because I was investing for many years. I changed my investment strategy, realized I had to take more risks. I was early with Bitcoin, I made money and then I bought the Lamborghini in 2015. And I loved that. I'm from Western Europe, there's a lot of socialism going on there. And a lot of looking down on rich people, and for example tools for rich people. There's lots of jealousy. Actually, I really don't agree with that. I was very proud that I could afford a car like that and drive a car like that. It was just lots of fun to drive a car like that. I had it for many years, it was lots of fun. I also used it on my YouTube to make videos about it and post pictures about it on my Instagram and on my Twitter. So yeah, and then the same with pretty girls. I like pretty girls very much but I couldn't afford it also as I was struggling financially. After my 20s like I quit my studies. I had lots of pressure from my family to find a job and to get a degree but I didn't want to do that. Instead, I just wanted to become a successful entrepreneur but I didn’t have the confidence. So many of the projects I started I failed at. I stopped where I should have pushed through, but I didn’t. So basically I was failing during my 20s. Once I turned 30 I realized: «What the hell! I am 30 now and I have not realized my dreams at all. I'm living back with my father, I don't have a girlfriend, I don't have a successful company, and what's going on here..». I realized I have low confidence and I should really change: the way I accept people to treat me, the way I treat other people. I should start building myself and uh and break away from the family. Because I turned 30 but actually I was still trying to please my father and that's why I was kept down. Because there was no pleasing him. The only way to please him was to be a loser. Because that was his opinion of me, that I was a loser and that's how what he wants to see from me, that he was better than me. So I had to face that. I really let go people. Actually, I surrounded myself with friends that did the same. Friends that actually looked down upon me and I was making a joke of myself often also. Instead of standing up for myself, I would laugh with myself. It was a way I had learned to deal with life. So yeah a lot of changes need to be made and that's how I became independent. I did lots of therapy also and took a step back from the family and many friends and started to focus on investing. I was 30, then it took another 6-7 years before I finally was successful with investing by the age of 37. Then I finally had made money, because I inherited money much earlier when I was 25 or so. But I was not as good investor also because I saw opportunities but I didn't go for it. I didn't invest big effort.

 

Andrew: Basically you started investing since 25?

Marc: Yes, when I was 25 years old. But for example, I saw the financial crisis coming and so I was telling to my family in 2005 in 2006 there's going to be a big financial crisis and banks will go broke and gold will go up a lot and everybody was laughing with me. But I was right. I made many mistakes and I still lost money when the financial crisis hit. I lost 10% but it was a lot better than most investors in 2008 that lost like half of their money and many went broke. So I had foreseen it and that gave me confidence. Because I tried many other projects but here the first time I was successful. I was not that successful, I still lost money but I was much more successful than the other investors. I was visionary and I was proven right and so I started to realize this is what I should do -  I should focus on investing because I'm good at this. And that's how I start to build my confidence that I'm good at something and start to choose a profession and really dig into it and challenge the ideas I had and improve my ideas. In the beginning, I was promoting a lot of risk-averse strategies but later that changed when I realized like: if you want the returns you really do need to take risk, but calculated risks. So that's how I then achieved to make money and then I bought that Lambo. I was already like 37 then and actually, during my 20s and 30s I was not successful. I had low confidence. Even though I had some money from an inheritance, I was not making money so I was not spending money also. So the kind of girlfriends that I would get was… every couple of years I would have a short relationship with a girlfriend that's not that attractive, that is difficult. And that's why I basically was out of the market because I was failing also to attract women. I was also not spending the time to look good on myself because I was fully busy with learning online about investing, playing computer games, and smoking marijuana.  It's not exactly the profile that girls want to fuck. 

 

Andrew: Yeah but I think the main thing is really self-confidence.  And now you sound like you have no problems with this and this is what attracts: success and self-confidence. Even sometimes I've seen many cases when there is no success and there no even attempt to show success but there is a huge self-confidence - it can work too. What's interesting that you have this approach, not like most of the people. You have like portfolio-based approach, you speak about it directly that your stand for the polygamy: so women in the plural. But what's your.. if it's okay to ask.. investment portfolio? And of course, it's an investment first of all in time, because money is not a problem. But what’s like let's say.. If you have 3 women in the portfolio - do you spend the time like 30/30/30 or is it some will get like 10% percent of time and another maybe 60%. It's interesting to listen a little bit on this. 

 

Marc: Yeah, so I have 2 girlfriends right now. I used to have 3. Actually, I have had two girlfriends and sometimes I had three. So I have one girlfriend where I have two children with. And then I used to have another girlfriend where I had one child with, but we broke up. So now I'm alone with a child but I found a new girlfriend to be with me and that child half of the time. So again I have two girlfriends but I would like to have three. So I split my time equally but it's something that's being built up. It just changed because before I would spend 4 days with Tabi and we have two children together. And then I would spend 3 days with my new girlfriend and my son Mikey. But now that just has changed and instead of 4 days with Tabi I spend 3 days with her and then I have one day also that I spend alone with my son Mikey. Because my other girlfriend was frustrated that she's always spending time with me together with my son and she doesn't get any time alone with me. She wanted also a day alone with me. So now it's like I'm spending one day alone with my son. That gives me the opportunity to find a third girlfriend also. I love my children but it's even better when I have a good girl with me to do the hard work of changing diapers, feeding, playing. So likely I will find a third girlfriend now for the day that I'm alone with my son. 

In general, I think the value of women is to bear children. At least for me because I want children. So that's also how I reward them and how I decide how much time they deserve for me and how much money and financial support, based on do they want to give me children and how many and how good of a job do they do with my children of raising them as a loving caring mother. That's how I look at that. But indeed I really like also as an investor. When you become good at something - you start to apply this thinking to other fields also. I like to apply this also indeed to relationships. I’ve learned a lot. Because my problem in the past when I was 20-30 - what would happen very often is yeah, I like a girl, in the start she's amazing. But then she starts to test you and do all kind of that's not acceptable: treating you poorly, not giving you sex or spending too much money or not doing the households, letting you do the cooking and cleaning. Children can also try to basically make you their little bitch to work for them instead of them working for you while you pay all the bills. In the past when I didn’t have confidence I would allow that to happen - not speak up, not be assertive. And then it would build up into an angry explosion or me just losing interest or the girl often actually losing interest. After treating me poorly she would also lose interest in me. So that's now very different with me. I have high demands for my girlfriends. I have a lot of things that I want them to do well. And if they don't do that - I speak up about it. In the end, the door is what will happen if they don’t perform. For me, love is not anymore some kind of romanticized ideology. No, no it's I compare it with running a company. Like the best employees are hard-working employees that actually know already in advance before you ask them to do something, they know what they need to do to make you happy.

Those are like employees that really make you happy and you promote them and you make them rich too. But not an employee that irritates you often, that you ask them to do something and they do it only half or they make up excuses why they can’t do it, or they are dishonest sometimes. That's not a good employee and it’s just exactly the same in a relationship.

Yeah, that's very helpful to realize that. And it works. And it is a strong fight because you really have to be sure about this, because they will really try not to do that, not perform well and to exploit you in relation. They will really try that and they will only accept not to do that and to become a good girl basically if they know it's for real. If they know they will be kicked out and changed for another if they don't do it. That's my experience. 

 

Andrew: There is also a market and competition in this field. Interesting, because you are rich and good looking and now it's like open information and the girls are also sometimes watching videos like this, and they watch Twitter. Do you often get like messages from them? Because you kind of have a vacant place or at least like part-time. So do they message you and ask «Hey let's meet, let's go for coffee»?

 

Marc: Yes, I do get sometimes from people that watch my work. But most that watch my work on youtube and Noise and Twitter are men. But that's now changing with Read.cash and Noise.cash: many women from the Philippines and poor countries. I get sometimes messages. Actually not that much but also like even when i get them it's not that interesting. Because I like thin women and most of them are not thin. I'm very very difficult actually the kind of girl I like. When i go hunting, I set in a mall or in the city center and many many girls need to pass before I say like: «That’s a sexy girl for me». I want them to be young also like. 25 maybe but certainly not and I can see that in the face and in the body you can see the age. I'm really attracted to 20-18 year old and thin and also beautiful in the face and also good-spirited. It's not just enough to be beautiful. The moment I talk with her I want her to feel and be polite and not rude. That’s also very important so I'm very very difficult in what I want and select very very strongly.  So the chance is just very very low. Actually, I've never had a high-quality girl like that contact me. That doesn’t happen.  These girls get constantly contacted by men and stopped everywhere so they are used to it. Actually, they don’t reach out, these girls, they select all the time. And so you have to be one of those guys that approach them. But you have to do it in a very original and strong way so that you stand out. The way I do that is by approaching them in the street face-to-face. And be direct like. When I see a girl like that I stop her and say: «Hey, do you have a moment?» or «Hey can I ask you something? Hey, you look very beautiful. Do you have a boyfriend?». That doesn't happen much to a girl in the West, not in Europe not also not here in Africa. So you immediately stand out and then you don't have to be the best dude. I'm not the best-looking guy from all the offers she gets, not even closer. I'm just average-looking to her. But because I show lots of confidence, she might give me a chance.

 

Andrew: Did you try to ask something «Hey, have you heard about Bitcoin? Do you have it? I can send it to you». I think it would be a creative way and just to send maybe one dollar to test. 

 Marc: No, I don't think that would be successful, because it shows you're doing an indirect approach. Many guys do that. They start talking about some subject instead of talking about what they want. They want to take her out on a date. That's what they want. So starting to talk about something else unrelated like cryptocurrency is, I think, a very bad idea. You could that also, you will probably notice that quickly. What you could do is indirectly talk about: «Hey, I like your shoes» instead of asking «Do you have a boyfriend?».  You can give a compliment of uncommon or you can try the approach like «Actually you look perfect except for your shoes». That does need a little bit more work like you could also tease her a little bit. I don't think you would be successful with talking about cryptocurrency. I actually don't talk also about myself when I date. I'm interested in her and when she asks questions about myself, I will evade. I will give a short answer and change topic to her again. Because I don't want her to know that I'm rich. Of course, she knows I'm well off, because I’m a white guy in Africa. Every white guy is considered well off here. You need to look actually as a prosperous man. You don’t need to look like a poor guy. You're not going to have much success. You need to look like well off but they shouldn’t know that you're rich. I think that's not a good idea because then it may influence her too much also. 

 

Andrew: Thanks for these tips. The interview is running for more than one hour. I think we can end it soon. I hope that maybe in several months we can also as the market changes. There are new projects coming and this is very dynamic area so I would be happy if you find time somewhere in several months to discuss the investment and the developments of the sites where we are both active (Read.cash, Noise.Cash) 

 

Marc: Yeah, very happy to Andrii. I think it will be crazy market over the next half year. So happy to do it faster. Also, I want to ask you like how does your if you are able to share that portfolio. Like how much percent you have invested in which project. Are you able to talk about that? 

Andrew: Yeah, sure as an entrepreneur. As I consider, myself because youtube channel and crypto media is only one of the things which I'm focused in and it's not generating any income, apart from maybe hundred dollars a month from all the crypto blogs. As an entrepreneur I had ups and downs and last year it was like some down. Also because some of the expenses and my car broke accidentally and I got another one. The clients for marketing and consulting they were like almost none. So at some months, there were almost no income. Now it changed and now I'm working with several projects. So I got even the loan in crypto like from a friend but i took it in Ethereum so I need to give it back in Ethereum but I plan to settle it soon. As a crypto enthusiast, I knew that crypto will be rising, but I didn't know which exact moment and I was sure that I would return till that moment, also because some of my income is in crypto. So I was not afraid of this rise.

At the moment I don't have a portfolio, some small amounts. But my approach is that like Nassim Taleb speaks «Skin in the game». So I work with some projects and some projects which I know more, where I took part in the governance. That’s actually my approach that I think those projects would be successful which have good community, good people and also governance and treasury system. Actually Bitcoin Cash it has great and active community. It doesn't have decentralized treasury but these things which you are actually doing and other people are doing they are providing the funds for the developers and entrepreneurs like those sites Read.Cash. So this from the investor point of view I would be happy to support and the Bitcoin Cash would be definitely in the my portfolio. And it would be in bigger percentage than Bitcoin because Bitcoin is now expensive and the Bitcoin Cash is cheaper now. And also because I earn some Bitcoin Cash on Read.cash so that would be reasonable to keep that amount. Also Cardano where I took part in the governance Project Catalyst. Recently with my colleague Boone Bergsma we won project there. It's educational projects with a good budget and we are planning with our Blockchain ventures company to apply to and start building in other blockchains as well. It's also it's Telos (eosio blockchain), I did some marketing for them and I'm interested because they have free transactions and it's cheap now (11 cents). Also I like Algorand because it's pure proof-of-stake and Silvio Micalli is very smart cryptographer. And privacy coins like Monero and maybe also Zilliqa, they are also doing like some governance system now. 

 

Marc: I think the way to build wealth if you don't have any capital yet in the cryptocurrency world is indeed becoming actively involved in cryptocurrency projects and get paid by these projects in crypto and keep that crypto or exchange it for better cryptos. That's the way to do it. 

And indeed many coins have a governance system where there actually a piece of the inflation or a piece of the supply of the coin gets used to pay people that add value to the project. But I would uh like to make the case to focus more on Bitcoin Cash. Because yeah Bitcoin Cash doesn't have a piece of the inflation going to projects but that's actually a very positive thing. Because the problem with all these projects up until today where a piece of the coin supply goes to pay for projects is that it's not considered to be a sound currency. And very often you get misallocation of capital like many many of these coins go to people that don't create value. Because it's so easy to give them away. You create a coin out of thin air is like creating a company out of thin air and then you have lots of shares to give away. And in the cryptocurrency world because all these currencies pump in value - everybody is making money. And it's easy to give away a piece of that supply to people that create value but because everybody is making money there's no real discipline, good discipline on who gets those coins. So a lot of the coins end up in the hands of people that don't create that much value. People think they do a good job because the coin goes up in value. But it only goes up in value because we're in the crypto bull market. And because you have an inflow of capital into the cryptocurrency industry from other markets such as stock market, bond market, gold market, real estate market, currency markets. That's pumping the value. But there is no good fundamentals. And what you see to many of those coins is once the bear market is there - they collapse through the floor. And what do you have in the end? You worked a lot, you got some of those coins. You were rich but you huddled it all and you are poor again a couple years later. So I think that over time you will see a big difference in valuations of currencies uh based on not high but actual real adoption. Just like we saw in the dot.com bubble like all projects pumped in the 90s, all internet websites even like just a name, just an idea would pump into a very high valuation. Everybody made money. But after that like most lost a lot and only a few smaller companies actually became very big. It's all about: are you able to capture the market with your product or not? And very few will actually succeed in that. I used to actually really believe that a governance model and a piece of the inflation going to pay for projects makes most sense. I used to think that and I was investing in such projects. But I've changed my mind from that. Because it's not necessary. Because Bitcoin investors know that they have to invest in projects to create value for Bitcoin. And they will do it voluntarily with their own money. And when you do it with your own money you do a much better selection in where do you give your money to. 

And that’s what we're seeing in Bitcoin Cash today. Yes you can do your own projects just like all the other coins. You can actually do Flipstarter now where you can raise money for projects like what you're doing, marketing for example a coin. You can raise money but the people that pay the money - it all comes from their own pockets so it's much better selected. But also when you earn that money and you keep it, when you keep Bitcoin Cash, I think you have a very good chance in the long run sort of capital appreciation with that coin just by holding it, just by saving it. And it's much less certain that you will achieve that with uh with other coins. So I think that if you focus on building value for Bitcoin Cash I will certainly reward you for this interview and keep an eye more on your work on Read.cash and on Noise.cash But I would recommend do a Flipstarter also in Bitcoin Cash. Think of how you can create value for Bitcoin Cash, do a Flipstarter and raise a big budgets for the projects that you want to do. I'm looking for that. I'm looking for Flipstarter. I want to invest in people that create value for Bitcoin Cash and you have to realize that you get paid in hard currency here. Nobody can print more of it and give it away to their favorite projects, to their favorite friends. No, and that's not the case with all the many other projects. Actually you're not sure how much they will issue currency and if it will be spent wisely. With Bitcoin Cash you're sure that nobody can print more of it and nobody can spend it unwisely and destroy the project.  

 

Andrew: Yeah that's actually a very interesting point which you raised. I even think that maybe this is something which I need to study more. Because in cases when there is a donation, like personal donation. Well for example I'm not sure that your money are used wisely also. It's hard to say, it’s really hard to compare. Because let's say this typical bitcoin cash giveaway. Two times I met Bitcoin Cash teams. One in 2018 in Dubai they were giving out Bitcoin Cash $5 dollars I think, but I was late to receive it. And second time in 2019 in Singapore where Roger Ver was speaking and everyone had under the chair the qr-code paper wallet which they could scan. I also failed to do it because for qr-code I used some coin and it just was damaged so I couldn’t scan it. Of course, maybe I could run in the break into another chair and took somebody else, but I didn't do it.  So such giveaways are they effective or not? Whose money are going there? Was it like Bitcoin.com money or Roger Ver's personal or maybe other supporters’. Sometimes in governance blockchains money are coming like not from the blockchain but from the foundation which already had the allocation of the funds which were either during token sale or other. It's really interesting topic and I'm studying it and I plan to write some big material on it. I think actually both models can work. 

 

Marc: Indeed, it’s all about how it's managed. There is also the legal risk like if there's a clamp down on crypto quickly they will take first to attack uh the ones that have centralized management, a foundation, are much easier to attack than a cryptocurrency that's more decentralized. You also have to take that into account. I had another question - How is the corona situation in Ukraine? Do you have to wear masks there? Are there lockdowns or curfews there? Or is it quite relaxed? 

 

Andrew: I think Ukraine is quite a free and libertarian country so everything is relaxed here. Usually, people wear masks when they go to the shop or to public transport. Currently, in Kyiv we have uh the lockdown for two weeks. So like in one week it will be ended. Before that the uh restaurants and everything worked, shopping malls. But now they did it just because the number of new infected people was high, to do it like lighter on this medical system. I've heard about Europe and some countries where it's more strict. It's more relaxed here, people travel, they walk the streets so the police is not controlling. Well some places, some businesses they kind of even work in this time. Why now it's not so feeling because it's already spring and it’s not so cold on the streets so you can come to the cafe or restaurant and do a takeaway. And some terraces work so you can sit on the summer terrace. So the situation is more relaxed, of course it's uh still a problem with the traveling and big events. We are going to have blockchain conference soon. It's a really biggest conference not only in Ukraine but probably in Eastern Europe. It was moved to the end of April and now we'll see how the situation will be there. Smaller events happen, big events do not happen. In a week from the time when we are speaking everything would be even more relaxed. And what about Africa? What about the country where you live? 

 

Marc: Kenya is not good they did another lockdown here. Curfew was at 10 and now they put it earlier at 8 which is ridiculous. There's forced mask-wearing so it's very annoying. It's not a fun place to be sadly. They really are destroying the tourist industry and they keep on destroying it. It’s a real pity. So that's very very interesting. So you also have two children?

Andrew: Yes, I do. 

Marc: Okay, cool. Well, thank you so much for the interview. 

Andrew: I also hope to see you maybe someday in Ukraine after the coronavirus times. We have actually a big crypto community here. And why I’m inviting everyone whom I meet abroad in person because I think for somebody who is working in the crypto area Ukraine is like one of the best countries to live. Because if you have like income in crypto, if you are either working remotely, everything is cheaper here. Maybe in the capital like not everything is so cheap. But let's say supercars they are cheaper than in Europe because there are no additional taxes for them. And there is like kind of uh supply which exists. 

Marc: Kidnapping risk? Because it used to be bad, no? 

Andrew: No I don't think. It's more or less safe. There was some case that some worker or CEO of exchange. There was some case but it’s a complicated story, probably it was like people like who knew him maybe he took money from them. But I really don't know but it was not something which just happened because he is kind of rich.  Kyiv as the capital has also high concentration of really expensive cars. 

Marc: Very interesting, thanks so much. It was a pleasure talking. 

Andrew: Yeah it was great to speak with you. So good luck with your investments and see you on Read.cash and Noise.cash 

Marc: Yeah I’m very interested to hear Ukraine is safe. So the moment they relax these the corona bullshit things let me know, I'm happy to come. Okay, corona test I’m willing to do but not wear mask. I want to go to a country where the restaurants are open, where you can sit and eat something. So the moment they take that away let me know and I would be happy to visit.

Andrew: For example a week ago I went to travel to the west of Ukraine, to the lakes. There were really not many people, because people go there mostly in summer. And Carpathian mountains and even when there is like lockdown in the Kyiv capital it's kind of two-week lockdown, it’s possible to go to some other city or to nature. 

Marc: Yeah but I’m not interested in that. I know I want to spend my money in countries that deserve my money and those are countries that don’t have the corona lockdown, bullshit mask-wearing. So that's why I'm only interested to visit Ukraine when the government gets sane again. I'm not gonna hide in nature, I can do that everywhere. I can also hide in nature here and not wear a mask. But that's not where I want to spend my money. 

Andrew: Here I mean that if you don’t wear a mask in most cases it will be fine. Well, it depends also like from the people for some people if you see you well if you're sitting in the restaurant without mask that’s obviously normal. If you go to some crowded shop there some of the people maybe would not like it. But it also depends like it can happen in all the countries. There is like no kind of government control on this and everything is more or less free. 

Marc: That’s good to hear. Okay, well a pleasure meeting Andrii, and hope to talk again soon.

Andrew: Great, thanks, and thanks to everyone who is watching. I’m advising you to join Read.cash Noise.cash 

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