Why “Negative x Negative” Should Not Be Taught At School Anymore

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Avatar for wrabbiter
3 years ago

I heard it and learned it before. But it was only a few years ago that I was able to wonder greatly: Why does a negative number multiplied by another negative number result in a positive number? I asked a lot of math experts within my social circle and they all came up with the same answer: “Because the rules say so.”

But I came up with a follow-up question: Why do the rules say so? What are the real-world applications of such a rule? When I insisted on such a question, I got this statement from a Math veteran: “I've been teaching algebra for more than 20 years, don't you dare question that rule that has been around long before you were born!”

The one who said it was right in some ways, who do I think I am if I begin to question such a solid mathematical rule? “A negative times a negative is positive, it is just like that by definition, stop asking and just get over it!” All my friends tell me that. But here's the problem: I SIMPLY CAN'T GET OVER IT.

Why can't I let it go? Because I believe that the entire mathematical system- all the formulas, equations, expressions, or any number for that matter, are invented because: they are meant to represent real-world objects, and real-world situations.

Even though Math belongs to the bracket that I call “My Weakest Spot” category in terms of mental undertakings, I firmly believe that if a mathematical discipline can't be applied in reality, then it shouldn't be pursued, let alone be taught at all. Math, I believe is a system built to solve problems, not cause any.

Before I asked a few friends and acquaintances about what they think, I gave them the statement enclosed in brackets. They all agreed. Unfortunately, they are just as baffled as I am as to how negative times negative can be applied in reality.

It is quite understandable that the concept of negative numbers is established because it is meant to represent debts, deficits, lack(s), or anything that someone should fill out for or replace once he is capable of doing so. I told them, I don't really think that such a question can ever be applied in reality.

Picture this situation:

Pedro has a debt of three pesos. (-3)

Later, he added two pesos (-2) to his debt.

This would mean that he has now a debt of five pesos. (-5)

Mathematically, it can be stated as: (-3) + (-2) = -5

The rules of algebra dictate that “negative plus negative, is equal to negative” so there's nothing wrong with the example above.

Here are the basic rules of Algebra multiplications, in case you want to be refreshed:

Now here's the tricky scenario:

Juan has a debt of three pesos. ( -3 )

Later, he doubled it ( -3) * (-2 )

According to Algebra, this would result into positive 6. ( -3 )* ( -2) = 6

Now let's ask: how can that be? If we are going to bring these situations into reality, it should actually make Pedro a debtor of five pesos (-5) and Juan, a debtor of six pesos. (-6) But instead, Juan would actually have his debt vanished, while Pedro would still be liable to pay five pesos.

And to make it even trickier, Juan would actually have an income of six pesos. Why? BECAUSE HE DOUBLED HIS DEBT!” Is this fair, or even sensible? If we are going to apply that in reality, Pedro would have this intense outburst of injustice.

I'm not saying the rules of this kind of math are wrong. My question is, why do they invent such a set of rules, if it can't even be applied in reality?

Let’s take a look at it from a different perspective. Let’s say negative is equal to a “lie” while positive is equal to a “truth.” We would then have a statement that goes like this:

“3 lies”, multiplied by “2 lies”, is equal to “6 truths” – Really? How? Why?

Another baffling example would be this:

Let’s say negative is represented by a black paint, while positive is a white paint. We can then say that…

“3 pails of black paint” multiplied by “2 pails of black paint” is equal to “6 pails of white paint” – Oh come on… can that be real?

If there is no real-world application to the concept of negative times negative, then it shouldn't be taught anymore, in my opinion. I'm not saying the entire subject of Algebra should be stopped though, for we can tell that it's a very important field of discipline. I'm just referring to the concept of multiplying negative numbers.

We should also include the concept of dividing negative numbers as well, for they basically work the same.

If you're a math expert, or if you have an opinion about this, please explain your point in the comment box. Perhaps, you can make me sleep better in the next nights.

Thanks.

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Avatar for wrabbiter
3 years ago

Comments

Welp, for me it should be taught in school.

First and foremost, when we say double it means multiply by 2 NOT multiply it by negative 2 they have a huge difference.

Second, we can't compare those signs into colors like white paint and black paint. Let's use this idiom as analogy, "We can't compare apples to oranges".

I hope you can sleep now hehehe opinion ko lang yan, I know that you're a Filipino😆

$ 0.01
3 years ago

You are wrong in the article. Let me quote a simple real world example.

Lets say you are writing a 3D renderer.

The object is on the negative Z coordinates (e.g. behind you).

The camera is also watching to the negative Z direction (e.g. you have a camera with you that watches behind you).

Then the object will appear on the screen, in FRONT (positive!) of the viewport, because minus * minus equals plus.

$ 0.01
3 years ago
$ 0.00
3 years ago

While I'm with you in with the idea that we should question the rules, I think you're wrong in your approach...

Firstly: Negative x Negative as mathematical concept, should only be applied to math, not another field! You can't say that Negative represents the color black and positive white, because a negative number can only represent a negative number... The whole thing becomes wrong if you applied this to anything else.

Secondly: In your debt example you doubled the debt (-3) by multiplying it by (-2.) I can see that, of course when you double something you want two of it... Except that we're talking mathematics here, Double doesn't take the sign (negative/positive) in consideration, because Double means Multiplication by 2. (And only 2, you can't replace it with -2 ever.)

Thirdly: We don't change the mathematics rules because they even work in Physics... Using this "Negative x Negative" rule correctly, we solved many equations that apply to real life like Velocity, Force, Electricity... Almost everything that can be turned into Mathematical equation won't work without this "Negative x Negative" rule.

Finally: If some mathematician said "because the rules said so" he either doesn't know or doesn't want to explain the science behind it because it's so high level. (Not that I know it myself.) We're doing it because it works for REAL LIFE equations and solved many problems in the last few centuries.

The Mathematical rules and number system we use is NOT the only one in existence, and if you want to spend your life making a new system that works better you might succeed, but you're just making an alternative system to the one we use that already works and tested with real life Physics.

There are things our mathematics can't solve yet, but we're solving new equations almost ever day using this same system... A new system might take more than your life-time to accomplish... If you want to do it, I hope you succeed, but for most people, it's unnecessary effort.

I really appreciate that you've written this post though, it means you're thinking for yourself and who knows, you might be right and all of us are wrong, but you can only prove that by providing a better system, and that's something most people won't want to try finding.

$ 0.00
3 years ago

I'm agree with this! Math are math we can apply math in a particular situation but we can't compare it into colors. Let's use this idiom as an analogy, "We can't compare apples to oranges" very well said sir!👍

$ 0.00
3 years ago

I know this idiom, too bad it didn't cross my mind while writing that, it would have saved up some time~

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3 years ago

I just found your comment interesting, very well said 👍

$ 0.00
3 years ago

Very insightful. I already had similar thoughts to what you're saying about doubling the debt. The fact that I posted these thoughts is just me soliciting ideas from other people. Your points are very well said. It got me thinking into the problem deeper. Thank you so much for this very inspiring thoughts of yours.

" it means you're thinking for yourself and who knows, you might be right and all of us are wrong," - these are truly wise words. We should meet in person to discuss some really deep ideas such as the topic I posted above. If it can be possible.

Have a pleasant day.

$ 0.10
3 years ago

Also for your Lie/Truth example... Lie is not a negative truth, they are different things. Sometimes a Lie can be a negative Truth in abstraction, but that depends on the Lie itself... Is like you're saying "X = - Y" but that only works as long as the X you are referring to, is the one that equals "-Y."

As long your abstraction works, you can continue using it, but the moment it stops working you have to replace it with another Abstraction.

Also, in your "3 Lie x 2 Lie" abstraction, what does the multiplication stand for? Lies can be added on top of each other but how does one multiply lies? If that exists, could it work with Math multiplication or does we need to abstract that to something else?

If you want to abstract a real life concept into its Mathmatical variation, you have to create a equations that works first. That's why all Math concepts start as Theories, because they weren't proven to work yet.

At least with the current Math system we have, people in might create something better in the future.

$ 0.00
3 years ago

Exactly. I was really waiting for teachers during my student days to say that to me. Unfortunately, none of them did... so sad.

$ 0.00
3 years ago

Also, do you know that the Decimal Numeric system most of us use these days (numbers from 0-9) is just one of infinite number of systems that work just as good?

Computers use the binary system and it works just as good for computers, but we're so used to the Decimal numbers that 0,1's are confusing to us. (That and they take too long of space to write big numbers with.)

There's also the Hexadecimal system which uses 16 symbols (0-9 and A-F) that works just as good as our 10 symbols (0-9) but it's easier for humans to use 10 since not only we're used to it, but it has less amount of symbols to memorize & it helps for historical reasons as well as there are no advantages to switch.

$ 0.00
3 years ago

Yeah, I know a bit about that too... I was a computer science student during college. You're really something pal. You have some deep thoughts that people within my social circle didn't quite get right.

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3 years ago

Lol... That made sense but we can't argue with the book..it is applicable to jobs dealing with math

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3 years ago

That's exactly the problem... we're not allowed to argue about it, because the rules say so. The rules, the rules, the rules... tsk tsk tsk. I hope the teachers, as well as the math experts out there, would just admit... that negative times negative can't be applied at all in reality.

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3 years ago

Haha. It's okay..we don't use formulas in daily life.. 😅 just the common knowledge of computations. Lol... Except for engineers, accountants, teachers and more

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3 years ago

I was on my way to self-feaching myself some calculus so I can understand Einstein's theories better. But the concept of negative times negative tortured me. Help me out Jane. I can't sleep well.

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3 years ago

Lol.. Are you a student? For sure you know how to deal with it.. 🤣🤣 i hate maths

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3 years ago

I was. Now, I'm just some lone blogger-musician. I'm starting to love Math, because of the challenge. Hehehe.

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3 years ago

Lol... I love math when i was in college because of our friendly instructor... Especially the calculus.. But now i don't want to stress my mind with those numbers 🤣🤣

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3 years ago

I haven't really thought about it until now😅. Thanks for this article

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3 years ago