Kim dotcom clubhouse 02-03-21 transcription

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2 years ago

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K: Anything that may emerge in three years, five years that is better than bitcoin should have a chance to surpass bitcoin or anything else. You know who tells you that bitcoin is still going to be the standard in three years. Nobody knows this you know.

A: So, we do know though liquidity right liquidity becomes your concern as liquidity as bitcoin does it just it becomes a lot more difficult like objectively speaking Bitcoin is really behind compared to a lot of the other currencies of any coins out there. I don't think so.

A: Are we talking about Kim’s project that he's building on BCH?

A: I don't know we're just talking about like bitcoin in general or any other project for that matter.

K: But why don't we move this conversation to the question that I had. Can anyone in this room tell me how the US government for example I’m just picking that particular government how the US government could benefit from a takeover of crypto of the financial markets what would the US government have in that taking place if anyone could give me some good examples are appreciated

A: There's no benefit at all zero absolutely so right from earlier today's Michael Saylor's pitch to the executives of Wall Street he was really trying to convince them to buy bitcoin on their balance sheets in order to hedge any volatility in their markets and also benefit from providing insurance and getting a yield out of their bitcoin so I was thinking if a lot of Fortune 500 companies get a lot of bitcoin on their balance sheets since they are based in the US the US government can take advantage of that to control the markets of the bitcoin and yeah basically didn't have

K: But where is that control coming from

A: against bitcoin is always US dollar the US dollar can be printed as much as they want you essentially get as much down over pressure that you want in the market

K: but crypto is going to change that right if we believe all the preachers of the crypto future crypto is eventually going to replace  the US dollar as the world currency right I mean that is what everyone is following

A: Bitcoin will, not crypto.

K: I don't think you have a crystal ball and I don't think you can say which of the cryptos is going to be the leader 10 years from now. Yes right now Bitcoin is in a great position but it doesn't mean that it will still be the leader in a couple of years

A: What's your thesis kim why why are you asking that question specifically

K: I ask that question because I want to encourage everyone to realize that there is no benefit for the us government  in a strong bitcoin or in a strong crypto movement and because there is no benefit they are going to attack it but you know like I said I'm opening the floor to anyone who can correct me and anyone can suggest any real benefit that the us government can have with the development of the crypto space over their own money printing schemes which are basically giving them an endless supply of money to pay off that and finance their needs.

A: I'm sorry I would recommend following this US senator named Cynthia Lummis she just became a member of senate banking committee so she's a hardcore Bitcoiner and she has the right pieces I highly recommend following her on twitter maybe that's the only thing well Kim that doesn't answer his question he's saying yeah he's saying we should be ready for them to attack it because there's no reason for them to get a benefit so they will want to kill it and the steel man argument for that is which I don't believe but the steel man would be that it's game theory on a macroeconomic level and they're competing with Russia and China and if they allow Russia and China to get the benefits of mining bitcoin and storing bitcoin and central bank treasuries and stuff and they'll lose out so that's probably the strongest argument competition globally

K: Well china is already what's 70 of all hash power on bitcoin right so the Chinese have taken a very supportive stand because they know that bitcoin is going to undermine the us dollar and is going to weaken the us government that is why they are promoting it they know it's going to accelerate the decline of the us dollar so again if anyone here can post any link to me in a direct message on my twitter you all know I have open dms to give me a best case scenario where the us government can actually turn the crypto movement into a benefit I would love to read about it because I've been looking for a long time and I just don't find any arguments out there

but your thesis are you saying that because they're going to attack bitcoin then that means that bitcoin bitcoin's gonna fail is that what you're saying no I'm saying bitcoin is going to succeed but I'm saying there will be turbulence there will be times of uncertainty market disruption [Music] some of the benefits that I see for example like the instant global electronic transaction or preventing curry feeding or better record keeping you know and monitoring transactions  however what would what could prevent them from just mining the same way that they're just or they're breathing money today so so don't you think they could those they could just do the same in the mining  the same schema

K: Well first of all as you know the supply of bitcoin is limited we have mined available so you know mining has its limits if you assume that the price goes up as it has  been in the last three years which a lot of commenters do you know some say 200 000 some say 300000 it's going to reach the same market capitalization of gold which would be 10 trillion dollars. So you know the question really becomes if you have the limited supply you can't really do what the us government is doing now and just issue more coin it's not going to happen.

A: I think this is a great question  I don't think there is any benefit to a central bank an example  why they wouldn't want to do that is just the issue when the stock market you know in March  no size if the fed wasn't able to print more money and restore cost markets would have returned I think a digital coin is something that will help government  avoid cash transactions so that they can increase tax revenue because there is a lot of money that is not taxed in the in the current economy. I'm in canada there was a report that came out five years ago where CRA had done the investigation they realized like whether it be used for clubs and taxi drivers or all these task-based transactions that were not taxed he found out that they were missing a good amount of tax revenue so I think some kind of digital form will be  will have to come out for that reason but I don't see it being something that's going to be limited and my biggest fear with all of this is  similar to the way they could just remove  Donald Trump from the internet  if they were to kill the internet right with our with our crypto dreams and this infrastructure  jeopardy and then some of the other questions I would have for you and others would be could they filter out transactions because the internet infrastructure is essentially like  not all but it seems like it's only a couple or a handful of companies that really  dominate the infrastructure and could they filter out those transactions that  they wanted to and outlaw completely  crypto where we don't have access similar to the paper money that they consider legal tender in the country could they prevent businesses from accepting these are the realities and that's why when I think of bitcoin I think as a more like big [Music]  K: is that the internet is such a big part of the economy shutting down the internet is going to be the same as crashing all the markets and ruining the economy so that's not you know that's not a path that any government would take unless you are a nation that is you know super small and you know doesn't care about the internet economy but for a country like the united states that would be an absolute no goal so that's never going to happen that the internet will be shut down because crypto is taking over the financial system  that was one part of your question the other question can you repeat that again  

A: quickly filter out  the transactions so  like just the crypto transactions themselves could they  prevent us from having those   the miners  from mining or any kind of infrastructure for the crypto system could they  filter that out

K: the way it is structured today that would not be a possibility you know you can't go into the blockchain and make changes without  you know all the miners signing off on it if they tried those service that they control would just fall off the wayside and no one would use them so I don't really see this as a scenario. The only chance that governments will have is through legislation and through regulation and you know eventually making the use of bitcoin unlawful or making the use of bitcoin over a certain amount let's say the government sets the limit every citizen can only hold and use $500 worth of cryptocurrency and primarily for the purpose to mine to make to do micro transactions small transactions over the internet you know but that's about it I mean regulation is of course also the most powerful tool because all of the big players that are now getting involved in the crypto space the moment the us government tells them we have this new law you have to follow it they will so the more institutional players you have coming into the game and the more companies you have that want to replicate the banking model in the crypto space and hold basically your crypto for you so you know you're in a situation where you don't control the keys obviously all of them are going to do what the government dictates and that is I think the biggest weakness that we are all facing you know the more institutional players come into the game and the more people have their crypto controls  and the custodian situation the more likely it is that the regulation will actually work to  hurt crypto significantly. A: So bitcoin is the most government resistant of all cryptocurrencies so when you talk about cryptocurrency being able to resist government capture or censorship not the other cryptocurrencies or even anywhere  amount of decentralization and government. Also I can leave the country anytime I want

K: yeah that's what I meant earlier you know with picking your jurisdiction I think when you know have a wallet or you do work in a custodian situation because you really want to have easy solutions then just pick them in jurisdictions that can stand up to you know the bigger players and say no we have our own rules and regulations we are allowing this  to take place and you know some good examples already exist so let me give you  an example  Singapore right Singapore has made a stand to say we're going to support  cryptocurrencies we're not going to prohibit that we're actually going to create a safe haven for any company that wants to succeed in the crypto space and we're going to protect them from foreign influence more and more of this is going to happen some of you may remember I started this internet party in New Zealand a political party because I wanted New Zealand and there was one of many reasons but I specifically wanted New Zealand to be one of the first nations to embrace crypto and become a safe haven for you know players in that space unfortunately you know we didn't succeed but Singapore has basically done what I propose New Zealand should do and they are going to benefit greatly from the rise of  crypto in the future yes

A: about the custodians or people that are holding crypto for you is the base of the best case scenario for government here right people turn it over to banks they regulate it they tax it and see mostly as a speculative asset that people hold on their balance sheet to hedge against catastrophic events and it acts as another source of revenue for the system that's ongoing I think that's the only scenario I can think of where it's a positive for any kind of centralized government what do you think about that

K: You are absolutely right and here's my thinking about this what would I do if I were the us government right if I was the president of the united states and all my advisors and my banking lobbyists are telling me crypto is going to kill us how am I going to be strategic about it and try and deal a blow to crypto that it can hardly recover from it and that is by not by holding off my regulation powers and getting more and more parties involved in the game that I know are going to follow my regulations when I issue them so for example Paypal could be this perfect trojan horse because Paypal now allows all of their us users to buy crypto in their Paypal account and if regulation takes place what the us government can do they can basically take a large percentage of bitcoin out of the marketplace simply by taking over all of the custodian  wallets and keys that are held you know by companies for example in the united states so the smart play is to let all of these you know bankers get into the game that get Paypal into the game and other payment processors so that they accumulate a critical mass of bitcoin and then I regulate and crush bitcoin by basically taking half of all bitcoin out of the market essentially

A: an executive order 6102 like how they did with gold they stopped people from what's your name you can take custody of your own bitcoin and to be honest I think you should follow mayor of Miami. Miami is going to attract Bitcoiners and they have publicly announced it plus I mean they agree but  if people educate themselves it's easy to like use services that allow you to take control it's one of the core parts of why bitcoin is able to be so censorship resistant and centralized and that is that these users or at least a significant amount of users should be running the networks themselves that is the biggest thing that keeps it from being co-opted by these let's say large exchanges or groups like Paypal you know because if we're all trusting our wallets our exchanges like you know like some of these smaller forks  then it's trivial for them to just cooperate  tell the exchange you know this is the new bitcoin and now all you're using for this you tell the wallets they're using the same notes providers and now your wallet says you have three bitcoin on it your exchange says they owe you three bitcoin and they as far as you know you have three bitcoins you don't know what's running on the on the actual infrastructure underneath those launch you're trusting somebody else's note but when you're on your own node you are the network and nobody can take it from you because they unless they come into everybody's house  they can't trick you until you bitcoin something that it isn't that's why I feel like  things like Bitcoin Cash for example will never achieve what bitcoin does because  you cannot run your own node when you want to scale through giant data centers to run the should verify blocks thanks seriously right that's a balancing it's it's been proven so many times that the hardware to run the bitcoin cash network with 32 mb blocks is like so cheap so I don't understand that's only because people are using it right now people use it to the level of bitcoin then it would be unusable at 32 megabytes and they don't want to stop there they want to keep going yeah

K: I don't agree with that assessment I think that you know running a bitcoin cash note is just as easy as running a bitcoin node you know the hardware has like the capabilities have been increased so much and have become cheaper and cheaper so I don't think that's a valid argument why I like bitcoin cash over bitcoin is that actually with bitcoin cash you have way less custodial situations than you have with bitcoin today yeah

but that's only because nobody is using account if people were using bitcoin cash currency competitor in the crypto world and

K: let me give you one simple example there's a really beautiful website called I recommend you have a look at it compares the different blockchains and you can put the bitcoin cash and bitcoin next to each other and you will see that on the bitcoin cash blockchain you already have 10 of the transaction voles that you have with bitcoin today so it's not  metrics coin metrics

all the spam transactions bitcoin cash is being constantly spammed with transactions to make it appear like it's being used coinmetrix identifies all the spam and removes it not only that but even if we're doing all we are doing we know that it's one megabyte what they want to do is at least right now country what I've heard in this channel I followed this very closely very close to the bitcoin cash community and armory and everybody  we've seen them try to do even 12 megabyte blocks on live on mainnet and and note starts so I don't know where this like oh 13 megabytes is easy because it's coming from the note the network actually crashed we had a backlog and these actually started to rise  two hardcores that was about a year ago I could probably pull it up and find it in my head but nobody writes about it  where we saw the same thing that the menthol started getting clogged up and the worst part is since bitcoin cash wallets don't have you know they don't let you set your fees because usually it doesn't matter it didn't matter how important your transaction was you had to just wait who knows how long maybe two hours to get through because there was no way to prioritize your message

K: well let me let me just clarify something here right when I talk about bitcoin cash's potential and the fact that I think it's undervalued it's because it has the right heading it has the right formula to find mass adoption if you actually want to use bitcoin today to buy an apple the fee is higher than the cost of that it's not something that is going to work as digital money and that's why I favor bitcoin cash because it has eliminated that issue but here's something that nobody knows that you know I'm working on because bitcoin cash doesn't really charge any real fee we are partnering  with philanthropist causes to give consumers on checkout out an option to support something they like we will start with three core courses one is one dollar to plant trees one is one dollars for safe water especially in third world countries where a lot of kids get sick drinking unclean water and thirdly child properly you know combating child poverty with instead of paying a transaction fee you are supporting a good cause now on every checkout with bitcoin cash in the future the consumer will have the option to pick one of the three and then also to pick that this is going to be the default fee that they're going to pay at any transaction over ten dollars we believe that bitcoin cash will do more than eight million transactions per day and five years from now and we believe that the total volume of payments that will go to these good causes is going to be more significant than for example donations from the Bill Gates and Melinda foundation or any other big philanthropic organization out there and that in itself the the beauty of this simple idea that you can exchange a fee and voluntarily  support a good cause is going to make bitcoin cash the green the positive player in the crypto space if bitcoin wanted to do that they couldn't even do that because of their fee structures and the limitations that they have. So when you consider this you know the beautiful things that you can do by replacing the fee with a voluntary positive thing you know I think that is what's what's going to attract the attention of a lot of people influencers celebrities that are looking at crypto today and saying well which one is actually good for the world like which one doesn't require a ton of mining or which one is carbon neutral which one can actually provide some benefit to humanity. and I think that is a pretty good idea what do you think

A: well the biggest issue I guess I have is that you know I run it's like a 10 000 computer right now 5950x it's got like  you know it's a beast of a machine and I know that I cannot verify 8 million transactions a day kim I think you make a lot of great points about bitcoin cash I think there's a lot of potential  there especially from a technical end and I had an idea that I think would help bitcoin cash realize  its value and gain adoption particularly in the crypto community a lot more rapidly and I think it would cost basically nothing and that is changing its name I think a vast amount of people who are permanently sworn off of bitcoin cash including myself is just because we feel threatened by the brand that it's trying to replace you know the granddaddy and that's attracting all the institutional investments that is the obvious you know forerunner for fulfilling this particular role in the crypto world bitcoin cash if we're called literally anything else would instantly become the number one competitor to Ethereum and be on a much more  direct path to accomplishing all the things that you praise about it and I think are very very worthwhile do you have any yeah

K: let me let me reply to that I think that's a very good point  I did have  you know a couple of meetings with Bitcoin Core people I've even hosted a small event at my house you know we were talking about how we could create an environment where both can coexist and both can benefit from the name bitcoin because it is the strongest brand crypto and I think we don't need to have this tribal poisonous environment where one has to be better than the other I think both serve a purpose bitcoin is positioning itself as a store of value as digital gold that is digital gold. They themselves accept that argument by the way it's a store of value of course they're trying to  you know with second layer technology and lightning you know to be more competitive in the payment space but that hasn't arrived yet so it's not as good as everyone hoped it would be otherwise it would already be a huge success but anyway let me make my point here if bitcoin was the store of value and focus on that and they are clearly very successful with that and bitcoin cash was you know closer to the original vision in the Satoshi white paper where he's talking about electronic cash and clearly  you know pointing out the benefits of bitcoin to the world to people actually transacting in it that is currently not happening with bitcoin bitcoin really is a store value it's an investment tool  you know that's primarily now being used by people that want to  store their assets and have them save you know whereas the bitcoin cash could be that payment arm and if both would just get along and work out their differences they can coexist and service both sides of the coin one is the score of value one is  you know electronic cash I don't I don't see this as a negative at all I think that would be a win-win for everybody and all players involved should just get together and figure this out and be more supportive of each other two things

A: should I tell you something about this one the easiest way to buy bitcoin cash right now is with Lightning Network you can use striker another thing is there's probably already more transactions on Lightning today than there is on bitcoin cash so it's it is showing itself to be very successful as far as but payments itself is not a popular use case right now

K: but you're saying probably I mean you're not

A: I haven't I've looked at the data there is more transactions in Bitcoin in the real world when you look at all the decentralized exchanges you look at all the local bitcoins huddle huddle bisque you look at bitpays data you look at average data look at any any data the most amount of usage for bitcoin is money or for cryptocurrency as money is bitcoin and followed closely by stable coins and bitcoin cash is like not even it's nothing

K: Well, I disagree with you again because I think I think you're coming from a position of you know really wanting to fight for your tribe and let me just reply to what you've just said okay let's keep it keep it civil.  so when you look at the transactions today in bitcoin most of these transactions are not actually people buying something online but when you look at the transaction of bitcoin cash most of the people using it are actually buying stuff online that is the big difference between the two and that's the point I was trying to make you know. Why can't bitcoin be this digital gold and half that entire market and why why can't they you know accept bitcoin cash to be  the electronic cash version of bitcoin

A: because bitcoin cash is not decentralized they cheated Nakamoto consensus when they added the emergency difficulty adjustment and then they cheated again when they added the 10 block checkpoints so what's the point of even using bitcoin cash if if it's not even decentralized currency you might as well use a stable coin so I lived for two years in a remote area of India and I can tell you  guarantee like it was a remote area and I could convert my bitcoin to cash the local inr currency any day anytime and bitcoin cash can't be I mean you have to convert it to bitcoin I mean it just is the case

K: because that's because you had a vendor in your proximity that did that it doesn't mean that you can't turn bitcoin cash into cash. Let me give you a really good example the Philippine community of foreign workers that are sending money back to their families in the Philippines and by the way that's a 31 billion dollar industry and 10% of the Philippine GDP they have discovered bitcoin cash to transfer money from the countries where they work back home and then people locally can turn that with almost zero fees into local currency prior to them using bitcoin cash for this they use services like money gram and global express to send money around the world with over five percent of fees and exchange rate fees on top of it so you do have a lot of use cases already where bitcoin cash  is outperforming bitcoin simply because of the fee structure you know I think it's ignorant to say that there are not many vendors actually has a vendor list on their website and will find over 100 000 vendors accepting bitcoin cash today you know I would love to see a list of bitcoin vendors you know where is the website where I can see all the vendors that I accept bitcoin today

A: look at p2p vole that's what I'm trying to say look at p2p exchange voles and remote areas of africa nigeria india everywhere it's liquid 24 7. there's no competitor and tax rate has 5 million customers in india and africa they use bitcoin they don't use bitcoin cash because the team looked at all the altcoins and said bitcoin is one the one that the market chose so they use bitcoin there's five million customers using bitcoin and stable coins are the second most used and if you are holding bitcoin cash for some stupid reason you would actually have to go to an exchange convert it to bitcoin then only you can use it well you don't have I want to say there are a lot of examples where you don't have to do that

K: and you know I'm kind of getting the sense that some of the people that have joined this call and are so vehemently defending bitcoin without even listening to any of the arguments I'm making I'm just trying to basically bad talk bitcoin cash I think you're missing the point. The point is the more competition we have in the crypto space the better it is because everyone will get better at their game and one thing that you can be sure of is that Bitcoin Cash will increase market share if you like it or not it works it works you know with the app that I'm building and works with many other apps that I've seen that are using it already so it's just ignorant to say that it can only be bitcoin and nothing else because you are missing the point that competition is actually a good thing and that the growing bitcoin cash community is also going to benefit the bitcoin community there's nothing wrong with both solutions coexisting

A: when you got rid of cry for you because that was a big deal to me because I looked up to you so much what you're doing with file sharing and sticking it to the van and the way that you were going to do with mega and everything else and how you're going to just obfuscate it all to where you wouldn't have viability I thought it was so genius I was like oh my god he's doing this one where they can't stop him now because he's an encryption this is amazing and then when you get off her and I and I just you know I always thought man could not come to me but then when you came out like and said quick yes it's like how does he not get it I think I don't understand like that's it's not that that's that's that might be a bit unfair I think  I think Kim has a point here and it's not just Kim you know even Vitalik  the founder of Ethereum sort of made a comment on this saying it it's became become very political this crypto sort of scene has become very political and it resembles very closely to the political issues that we've seen in the past in history so you know it's such a and sure maybe there are some bad actors  that that promotes certain points and make  want to benefit from it but I think team has a correct view of it overall which is it's not crypto against yacht not about bitcoin against the world right

K: exactly it's not just that that is exactly right and then just  to the person who just  praised mega and what I've accomplished with that and by the way it's still live and I think it has approximately 300 million users now and you're exactly right the service provider knows not a single file at least the way  I came up with the idea I don't know if they have changed it or what they have done and not involved in mega for many years but give me a bit of got me a bit of slack you know I'm not just going to come into this arena and promote something without thought I have spent a lot of time  coming to this conclusion and you need to give me a little bit of credit for what I've done in the past and not just assume that I'm missing something here or that I'm somehow deranged to support something that you don't agree with you know I think time will tell and I think I will prove you wrong and you will see that my efforts together with many other developers that are working on BCH are going to make a real difference when it comes to market penetration and increasing the share of  you know cryptocurrency transactions don't underestimate me like this and think that you know I've somehow been fooled or bought or anything like that it's none of those things

A: I agree 100 with your camera bashing is bad and the more competition we have is that the more the whole space gets better so I think in this whole space the problem right now is we are too attached to our bags right right like so we have our financial crypto bags and we only want others to only buy that so we fail to see the improvements of some other coins that may  give out there to include you know the coin that we liked I think it's very disingenuous to assume that I just don't know I just want to configure that I mean I've used the content before and in 2018 I had to become somebody so I don't have any dollars I live on crypto 100% of the time and in 2018 before lightning kind of you know got better I basically started using bitcoin cash because yeah the fees are high and I want to spend seven extra dollars or five extra dollars every time I want to use lunch and so bitpay was the way that I was able to you know use bitcoin cash easily to buy whatever I could buy but then once and that you know of course career looked at me because it's cyber by the way I did go to in the past and look at the merchant list for bitcoin cash  merchants now the ones in my area there were three other than  north carolina none of the ones that said they accepted the bitcoin cash except to get my cash was just that they use a merchant provider that can accept bitcoin cash but most of the merchants at least the ones I went to didn't have that option enabled

K: well let me give you a bit of insight so has made a couple of investments with point of sales that are actually putting the hardware into shops and the software into online shops to accept bitcoin cash one of the many examples is go crypto go crypto dominates  the entire crypto market in slovakia or slovenia I'm not sure one of those two countries and they literally have  you know 10,000 vendors there now and that can easily be replicated in any other country so that is a test case to show you know in slovenia I think it's slovenia they have malls physical malls where everything you can buy you can buy with bitcoin cash now that's not the global case yet but people are working on making that happen and also another thing that people seem to forget it's still only three percent of internet users that hold crypto or use crypto at all this is still this entire industry is still in its infancy so to think that you know there will not be competitors that have better approaches better technologies to think that could ultimately benefit more consumers and more vendors is naive and to think that they could not potentially be a threatening competitor that you know may take the crown of bitcoin is also naive if you know one thing from the internet bubble is that there were hundreds of companies that were valued at over a billion dollar based on a business plan based on an idea and even those that some of them that had very attractions that were the market leaders were later replaced by better technology so don't underestimate you know the situation of just three percent market penetration right now we are still at the very beginning and so much can change in this game

A: can I just say too that like to address your point earlier about people being  aggressive and stuff you know the reason I came in here is because I would need spamming beers as well and I was a big fan of mega upload and then once when you announced you were gonna do mega net I was pped I was like retweeting everything and trying to follow it as close as possible and then during you know the exact same as jc I was just like face palming myself like for two years straight when you're talking about bitcoin cash and like the market signals are clear like bitmain lost their entire bitcoin treasury by trying to artificially pump up like support prop up bitcoin cash and rogers lost a lot of his treasury too except he's got a bunch of bags of alt coins that he just sees around investing in and pre-sale investing in but regardless the market has spoken and I would just love the reason I've jped on here was to try to like see if you're open to considering building a lightning network because maybe you don't realize but it is ready for something like that

K: we have we have we've experimented for it with it for two years and it's still not ready you know and I don't agree when you say that this is currently working it's not you know we've done tests that have shown that you know it's not working and if it would be working I would be  promoting that rather than a bitcoin cash

A: so can you explain what you need to see before you consider taking another stab at it

K: well let me just go back to one point that you just made where you said the market has decided right it is bitcoin again the market is only three percent of the internet population that is not a good example to say that the decision has been made the decision will be made in five years ten years down the road and that is where I'm looking I'm looking into the far future who is actually going to have the point of sales  the vendors and the users which of the two of the two models is more likely to succeed and if Lightning does everything perfectly then there's still the question of centralization because of the second layer reality you know and that is going to make it attackable that is going to make it vulnerable to the attack for example if the US government would choose to do something against Bitcoin and you can't disagree with that right

A: well I could I disagree that there's any difference between lightning network and bitcoin cash when you talk about security it is better fighting's better because they can't take your they can't really do anything so centralization on lightning for example even if we're just two nodes it wouldn't be less secure than if it were 10 000 or a million because it's secure not because of its no not necessarily because the user's being distributed it's secure because it uses cryptography to tie your bitcoin keys down so the most that your peer can do is like harass you maybe or you know  hurt you further than that but the biggest thing with bitcoin cash node I mentioned earlier my ten thousand dollar computer cannot do eight million transactions per day and verify each one if it's not fast enough you know I'm I'm a smart engineer but of course

K: it's important to consider that there will be more development you know that there will be a new features added that will allow you to do that in the future right now  obviously you are right but we are not even close to the transaction volumes that we anticipate in five years down the road obviously you need to build for that you know you need to create the roads for all of that to travel

A: I'm working on the square crypto team where we are trying to make an implementation of lightning called rust lightning more accessible to developers so if at any point you would be open to exploring what is missing I I think we would love to chat with you about that although of course if you have  chosen the path that you want to go on

K: no definitely if that makes sense I'm definitely open to that I would appreciate if you would send me a direct message which within with a link where I can you know try it and do an implementation of what you guys have built in the test environment I would definitely love and have a look at that yeah with pleasure

A: the one thing I wanted to add that I think makes lightning network different from bitcoin cash by itself is that it is because it is a second layer application where you have a lot of transactions happening only with eventual settlement it significantly improves privacy and if you have some things that are being currently considered for activation inside bitcoin like taproot and schnorr then even multi-hop transactions will become disassociated from one another such that you won't be able to link them by use of the same hash and that will increase privacy and anonymity even more and right now the only  cryptocurrencies where you get really good privacy as far as I'm aware of are Monero where it's necessary for all transactions and z cash where it is not necessary and where the utility is so low that it's actually not really useful but  that is something that can be applied to any utxo based cryptocurrency in the long term so I think in principle if Bitcoin Cash has the necessary segment support you could deploy lightning network on top of that too

K: yeah that's an interesting point he sent me what you guys are working on I would definitely like to have a look at that for sure thanks like unlike some other people you know my mind is open and always will remain open for something that is better than what's currently out there where I'm coming from and I need to emphasize this is really our own test environment in which we wanted to make sure that we provide the best solution for future catered I am customers that want to utilize the file shop that is how I arrived at my own decision  to support bitcoin cash now I'm not saying that we are only going to implement bitcoin cash quite the opposite we are going to implement anything and everything that's out there but you know I think that the highest chance of success is currently based on my own experience with everything that we have tried bitcoin cash if something better comes along I would love to see it side

A: I believe there's a really good solution on privacy side and  I'll be shooting you a dm with a link to take a look at that I think  you might enjoy from multiple perspectives sure no I would I will I would have a look at that too you should add your twitter on your house  profile that might make it easier for people to go there straightaway

K: I will do that I just don't like to give apps access to all things that I do on twitter I've looked at what they want to have for me to add my twitter and I get suspicious when they want to know  you know what users I'm blocking or things like why the hell would they need to know that you know okay fair point

A: I know a lot of the teenage girls create instagrams so that they have their normal one that their family sees and then a sub one so there could be a a fake kim twitter that no one knows which is operating at once yeah

K: I hope one day  clubhouse will have like a little verification tick as well and then that that should solve it and we were talking about the added features earlier oh sorry for coming at it doug did you want to chat no thank you  

A: yeah kim you mentioned the bitcoin brand name obviously being the strongest  and you also mentioned the 3 market penetration it seems like within the 3 that crypto has penetrated  the bitcoin cash brand mostly reminds people of civil war of secession of something threatening bitcoin which is still not even like 11 years old  it's a baby it feels like a baby and it feels vulnerable and people still want to fight for it and so it seems like the bitcoin cash brand right now is a huge liability among the particular demographic that's most expert and most interested in this in this industry and I suppose I just urge you to to reconsider  maybe pursue a name change because it would definitely immediately reduce my personal resistance to zero about it and I'm sure I speak for a lot of people

K: well let me let me respond to that I find it so interesting that in a lot of the conversations I had recently that I'm constantly being told about how little of a threat  bitcoin cash is to bitcoin yet every single time I make a tweet about it it's like running into a hornet's nest it is of course it is a threat because it is a real competitor it's not some joke a crypto thing like doge coin  dodge doji coin whatever you want to pronounce it you know it's it's a real thing that has real developers behind it that have been working for many years on creating you know a solution that works in the electronic cash environment and I'm taking them seriously and everybody should because this is not some small little  thing what I think should happen in the best interest of all parties is that the axe is being buried and that you know bitcoin  core and bitcoin cash can work together for a common goal which is to increase the adoption of crypto in general all these fights are just distractions that are going to turn people off from actually you know considering using crypto I think if we were if we were allies and working together and bitcoin focusing  on you know their strategy and us focusing on our strategy it would be a win-win for everyone let me give you a simple example okay and I mentioned that earlier I would really like no one to underestimate what I can bring to the table here for bitcoin cash we're going to have a really substantial influencer campaign with important people around the world coming to the table with bitcoin cash and working with us promoting it now what I would love much more than the current situation is that they are promoting bitcoin at the same time and say this is what bitcoin is great for this is what bitcoin cash is great for and they can coexist and work together and support each other and you know what the result of that is going to be mass adoption more people getting involved and understanding the differences and you know making sense of it right now with all of the hostilities going on I think it's really counterproductive and the fact that these two teams are not working together is  in my view a real loss for the crypto community.

A: yeah you've been saying that for years then you must realize that we don't like bitcoin cash we don't like roger we see him as an enemy and it doesn't make them say hey  bitcoin sucks and it's slow and expensive I mean you bitcoin cash they weren't looking up bitcoin cash they were looking up bitcoin they read the stuff to bitcoin cash guys you put about bitcoin on how shitty it is and then they just say okay never mind bitcoin sucks and they don't say well what else they just

K: I agree with you that in the past the way things were handled on both sides are counterproductive I'm totally with you on that you know but I think

A: it's irreconcilable again it's not gonna happen well that

K: but that's not how diplomacy works if you enter into a room with that kind of view you're never going to end a needless battle like this have an open mind you know I think some of you are here I have an open mind for you I don't know yeah but exactly that is my point I'm I'm here trying to make a case for bitcoin cash you appreciate me because of the things that I've done in the past so why not give me the  you know the benefit of the doubt and let me try and make an effort here to bring those two camps together for the benefit of all I think there's nothing wrong with that but if you have this this view that because of the things that happened on the in the past by the way on both sides pretty immature stuff you know then it's this is going nowhere and that would be a loss for everyone you know I would really like there to be a round table with the key decision makers so that they can make peace and actually benefit from each other

A: but we don't believe that that's what the case is we believe that bitcoin can do everything and we only need bitcoin so why do we don't believe that we need all funds the bitcoin cash doesn't have the fundamentals of bitcoin if they propose today the court developers propose you know the kind of changes like check marks or  changing difficulty algo though or any of these things like declining patches up  especially scheduled hardfork that's like one of the worst things I feel a coin can do because that proof is very centralized  or if they had one percent after a big lineup one percent after some other point like these fundamentals are important to me and I wouldn't I would I would be could quit bitcoin before I accepted a bitcoin that had the properties of bitcoin cash yeah

K: look I see that you guys have you know your views and I I don't  agree with some of them and you know I think it would be beneficial if there was some kind of  peace treaty let's call it that  because in the end what all crypto  ventures out there want is that crypto finds mass you know and that is really the only thing that is going to protect us from  the way governments are doing things today the money printing the unfair financial system that's disadvantaging the people and basically directing the benefits to the top 1 you know that old corrupt system is what we are fighting we are not fighting each other that is what they want they want to create this discourse between us and fight each other because they know it's going to weaken  us and our you know I call it a crypto revolution that is really what this is so in a way we should all just realize that we are in the same team we're in the same boat and we're trying to change the things that are wrong just the same you know I'm not in this for profit I personally don't own the single bitcoin  and I have like hundred dollars in bitcoin cash that roger ver sent to me through his bitcoin or comment and that's it I'm in this because I believe crypto can change the world for the better and primarily for the people and a shift of power that needs to take place for a better future you know and if if we can all agree on that common goal maybe it's much easier for us to come together and I don't really appreciate you know that you guys seem to underestimate me and you know my possibilities that I have to assist bitcoin cash by achieving their goals

A: you know it's not you I think that you might even be able to maybe make a debt in bitcoin cash adoption but that's not going to help because to me there's no foundation there it's a centralized thing it's easy to co-opt by government it's easy to crush

K: I think yeah but and that's just not true I don't I don't think that's that's nice of you to say

A: that it's working they broke nakamoto consensus twice right

A: so I keep hearing a lot of vb but you have to realize there are a lot of developers on the bch side too there are a lot of people who believe what they have done regular upgrades in their aspect that's the right thing right so they see btc as it's not upgrading or changing anything has a disadvantage so this is the freestarted in the world there's never been less friction  before now with the internet and all this open open software and even though I don't like these it's still open so anybody can use it and for years nobody uses it as  brad pointed out all the transactions for at least a heavy majority of them are not even real it's like one guy if you trace the wallets spamming you know usually under a dollar for whatever reason I don't know maybe so that these conversations can happen and they can pretend it has activity I don't know I'm just guessing  

K: have you been here when I described earlier how is going to work with the file shop technology no I don't care let me just tell you that I am of the firm belief that this is going to be a killer application for  crypto you know mega upload I built to 160 million users mega today has I think the last thing I heard 300 million users I know that is going to have more users than those two past projects of mine combined I simply know this because everything that's in it is what I have learned over the last decade building these kinds of mass user services that are really attractive to them I know what users want I know what artists want I know what everybody wants in the space and I'm going to deliver it to them so I know of at least another three parties that are working on killer apps that share the view that I have that bitcoin cash right now is the most attractive solution for a service provider like us so just from that pool of innovations that are going to come out I can already tell you that the market share of bitcoin cash will increase significantly and those are just the ones I know of so to you know to come in here with the argument that no one is using it and it's never going to go anywhere I think  totally underestimates what people like I and other innovators are going to bring to the table to make mass adoption a thing for crypto you know so I really just hope that you can see that you know I'm not just making tweets about and promoting it out of nowhere because  you know the real point that I'm trying to make here is that it works it works well it works in our test department with and we're going to promote it and many others will too so there is going to be real competition now what the bitcoin community the core community has to ask themselves is it really necessary to have this fight because I want to remind you of something in the early days roger ver was called bitcoin jesus for the reason that he was one of the main initial promoters of bitcoin and he has done a lot of good for the bitcoin community helping to grow it and there was a point where they had a disagreement where core wanted to be a store of value and roger felt like you know closer to the vision of satoshi that this should be electronic cash and this is where the campuses agreed and the school is not it kim that's that wasn't it that wasn't what argument was about you you know why I know it is because that's what roger told me okay I've been enjoying it yeah

A: because he's a megalomaniac and he just wants his way we wouldn't listen to him because he wanted to take bitcoin in the direction that none of the rest of the users or developers wanted yeah

K: but if you if you have an open mind for a moment right and you look at satoshi's white paper clearly what bitcoin is today this is not what satoshi wanted in his white paper

A: I don't think it remembered what satoshi wanted I think that's the point is like the free market is deciding where it goes yeah but that's quite naive but kim he broke that's how she consensus twice he broke the nakamoto consensus model twice so that argument about satoshi worship doesn't matter they broke they did they were so hypocritical they were saying all these things about what bitcoin core bitcoin this bitcoin car this and that and then as soon as they got to the actual test of decentralization where the miners were going to actually remove their hash power from bitcoin cash they had to change nakamoto consensus and have the emergency difficulty algorithm so the chain wouldn't stall off and died and then when bitcoin sv started to try to like legitimately use nakamoto consensus to take over control of the the the with more hash power roger and the and amaury and those guys colluded with the exchanges behind closed doors to add 10 block checkpoints to totally defeat the point of needing to have consensus in the first place because so they totally centralized it and that's what the threat that's why we wanted to protect bitcoin from people like roger ver because it's not government resistant if it can't even even be insider resistant.

K: here’s where I disagree. When you are aware of attacks trying to take you out and destroy you of course you're going to try and defend yourself and I think this is what happened here what also everyone totally underestimates is with the increase of utilization of bitcoin cash the value of bitcoin cash is going to go up that's the consequence of it and with that you will have a whole armada of new miners  finding bitcoin cash attractive  to mine it and therefore  decentralization shouldn't even be  an issue you know with more attractiveness of bitcoin cash and more miners this situation  is going to stabilize and I don't agree with you that it is centralized but what I do agree with is that you know roger and his team had to fight for their survival and they had to take measures to not be destroyed and that's just something you know if you if you're thinking about it you're putting yourself into the shoes of the bitcoin cash team I think if you lost what you are doing and if you love what you are building you would probably also get creative to figure out how to  protect yourself from destruction

A: yes but you can't cite the white paper as a reason why roger forked away from bitcoin and then not recognize the fact that he changed bitcoin at the fundamental core game theoretical principles to make sure that the coin didn't die

K: I tell you that I take this word for it and unless I see something  that changes my mind that's just how it is that is what  he explained to me and I take his word for it

A: yeah but kim it was really users it was people like me and jc it was the users and the node operators of bitcoin and the developers not just the not just the developers but the hundred thousand people that run bitcoin nodes we were the ones that signaled for UASF this was a this was the users of bitcoin rejecting roger versus ego and the miners speaking

The fact that a fork took place and bitcoin cash was created  shows you that there was  support for roger's idea it wasn't just him by himself doing that so you know here's the thing we are we're talking around in circles I'm of the pretty clear view now that all you care about is bitcoin and you are not open to any arguments no matter what they are I think I've made a couple of pretty good ones  and that's okay you know I don't disrespect you for that

A: I still hold some of my bitcoin cash I hold like 100 different all altcoins I try all this stuff just like jc I've tried I I know I know some bitcoin cash developers like I try to keep an open mind but it's been three years like this is clearly well we've settled

K: it like me to get involved and maybe I will be able to convince some people to really bury the hatchet and  and come to their senses because this kind of  hostility  and negativity is not helping anybody you know

A: can we talk about some of the theory of why miners  might be able to attack bitcoin cash a little easier because I think  we saw like six mined empty blocks in a row this year on bitcoin cash I think that that shows one of the issues is that  as long as new coins are still being minted on a new block that bitcoin cashers are actually the miners aren't really incentivized right now because there's so small amount of money to be made for fees they aren't incentivized to add any  transactions when they're getting new coins because essentially they have to majorly upgrade their memory space  in the future adding a ton of transactions in as the block size increases but I don't think that scales with  with this sheer amount of memory to the amount of money they'll be making off of those transactions all right let me ask you a really simple question if I may

K: if bitcoin reaches a market cap of 500 billion dollars let's say don't you agree that miners will be more attracted to mining bitcoin cash I mean it's literally just achieving critical mass once you have critical mass which is what we're working on the miners are going to flock more and more to bitcoin cash obviously they are still going to mine bitcoin but we are also going to get you know more  miners  to work with us simply because of the increase of value

A: I think that what I'm trying to propose is that maybe the transaction volume on a global scale won't be  worth the upgrading of your you know how many ever terabytes of memory you're going to have to upgrade every day to support a global scale and miners will be incentivized to leave off a lot of transactions just to maintain a viable memory going forward it's a race it's a race if I can validate just a few transactions then try to submit my block and get you know get the blog first then I win the race and I get the reward the reward is so much bigger than the transactions certainly on bitcoin cash right now even if they had even if they did have 32 points they would still not even have worth the validation time and we've seen this on bsd where they've purchased the box it's not worth the foundation time for them to risk processing those fees for under a penny to lose the valuable part of the [ __ ] which is the reports so I'm actually worried about bitcoin when it reaches the 21 million papa because the incentive structure then will only remain of the transaction fees and if the block is still at one megabyte capped and 15 to 20 transactions who's gonna provide enough incentives to the miners to keep the chain going well one megabyte  cap is that the alien circuit so you know if you want higher fees for miners you should want some smaller blocks the smaller the blocks the

K: you don’t want more fees for miners because then you don't have  an electronic cash system where people can do micro transactions

A: I don't think you're listening to the lightning network man we gotta get you up that's what we're doing that's why there's hundreds of there's actually thousands of developers working on building out lightning network there's lots of money being invested by altruistic bitcoiners square the white building on that simple payment verification that's in the white paper a lightweight client we are we do what we do want peer-to-peer cash it's it's it's store value and peer-to-peer cash that's just something roger and vc say that are trying to shield altcoins and ethere a lot of us

K: here's why you are wrong because I am saying that too after having tested it for quite some time so it's not just roger saying that someone who's actually building technology and trying to make it work

A: all the time like building up to make it peer-to-peer cash so I just don't think it's intellectually honest to use that argument and see bitcoin chose to be store of value when there's there's thousands of developers I angel invest my own money into people just for that specific use case because I want to see peer-to-peer cash I want to see the next two billion people come on to bitcoin and be able to both store their value and protect their wealth against governments and censorship and fiat money deflation inflation and also be able to use it peer-to-peer there's a lot of us that still are that that's why we're building out the lightning network and it's going to be your rescue

K: you will be happy to hear that we've already implemented lightning into k2im and it has been on our roadmap  to do that and that has already taken place so eventually I'm not I'm not going to gatekeep bitcoin cash if lightning by the time we launch runs as smooth  as you say then people are going to use that and it will be available to our users there's really no problem

A: that's one that's awesome you'll see I think you'll see like  there was I think it was cheap they did the same when they had bitcoin and I think eight percent of other transactions

K: were I'm looking forward to it and  you know like I said my mind is open and anyone that has   you know any lighting solution that works smoothly with you know high transaction volumes I'm happy to look at it in our test environment it didn't perform as advertised and we've tried  you know making it work but  you know in their defense that's also about almost a year ago now so you know things have improved significantly  we're going to look at it again

A: I'm excited I really am because like I said you're one of the earliest [ __ ] pioneers us and and you know finding  legal and effective ways to provide freedom  despite the regulations that try to stop having that freedom which I think is you know a large part of your cleanse about so  I I do look forward to using lightning on  your new product and yeah and I hope you do reach out to the square crypto guy that you know offered his assistance because you know they're they're very skilled team being funded by  square and so yeah I know I remember that I know jack jack is doing good work and square crypto is  amazing I've seen their submission to the to the regulators of the us you know they're writing really good letters and totally supporting them and by the way I hope one thing becomes clear in you know this this conversation is that I'm not against any anyone else in the space I love bitcoin I love Ethereum I love you know anything that's happening in the space because I know that is the future and I'm listening to all of you and you know I'm trying to respond as good as I can and as fair-minded as I can I hear you I know that you're not you may not agree with me on this point but just give me the benefit of the doubt and look at what you know what I can do in the next two or three years and see if you still feel the same way you know I think you should really not underestimate why I made the decision that I made sure

A: but if that has a different purpose you decided to make your own calling or promote the mother of coin even if you were successful to me it wouldn't be I mean maybe somebody would like to dive in but I don't know there's no words without the principles at bitcoin

K: yeah we were looking into that and you know not a lot of people know this but there was a time when we were thinking about issuing a token with bitfinex and we had some 30 million or what signed up for it and in the last minute I pulled the plug because of the uncertainty you know around this being a security and I feel I was vindicated for that decision you know my partners were quite upset with me because now we have the situation with ripple and xrp and they're going to fight for many years and it's just such a difficult position now for anyone to issue tokens because of this test case that the sec has clearly launched to stifle the space you know so yeah you were right now here on coins I mean granted you will make a lot of fun we could have cashed 100 million you know early in the game but it's just you know I it just wasn't right in my mind to issue a token at least not at that point and under the circumstances that the whole market was was under you know so I'm very comfortable with the situation we are in you know we raised just enough to develop the software we're making good progress and I'm just excited to show you the world the next thing that I'm creating you know

A: I'm looking forward to kim for your can I am because we are having issues with the crypto apps out there going down like the open bazaar was out of our funding so we no longer have a proper e-commerce platform and then also on twitter we have seen so much censorship in the last couple of months so combining the e-commerce and messaging I think I really am looking forward for your platform  

K: it's it's going to be exciting it's going to be a game changer you know as you know I always disrupt and always do things a little bit differently and I think it's really going to be a great new ecosystem  and again something that we are not hosting so it is decentralized it's not something that you can shut down you know and once it's out there for everyone to use it will create its own life and the invisible hand takes over and that's really what I'm looking forward to I can't wait to launch this thing and show you all

A: but don't you think that bitcoin will be eventually the winner because of the uniqueness of you there is no other change

K: I would be surprised if bitcoin is not way up there don't rule it out because when you look at the history of innovation there's always this one thing that is a bit better and sometimes all it takes is a really brilliant marketing campaign there's a really you know brilliant new way of doing things and all of a sudden  you know you have 100 million users and you are suddenly a player in the crypto space and these are things that are hard to control so I think bitcoin to remain the leader will have to innovate will have to continue to be you know brilliant and cannot  be left behind by better technologies you know that is one thing that I would urge bitcoin core to look at you know because there are many young new players in the arena now that are doing things I think better than bitcoin and bitcoin needs to look at that and take that seriously if they want to stay on top

A: I couldn't I couldn't afford that because you know okay well thank you  kim I'm afraid that if bitcoin is ever replaced in some way that it would be basically the most damaging thing that could happen to the progress of crypto it's the only coin it's the only asset that institutions are talking about and legitimizing the space and bringing it into the power structures of the world and if  bitcoin cash replaced it even on technical merit  there it would just turn the whole industry on its head it seems like that would be catastrophic even if the tech is superior and also a lot of the time superior tech does not have the dominant market share if you look at Microsoft I mean a lot of crappy products are dominant because they were first or they have moment or whatever and there's a there's a value I think in maintaining the stability of the industry and of the idea of the philosophy and I think bitcoin fulfills that beautifully and to threaten that would be far more costly to the movement than  any other  option could you maybe ease my mind about that

K: yeah well I've said it earlier that I think competition is a good thing and has always been a good thing without competition people get lazy  they don't need to look left right and right what everyone else is doing and they may not have the kind of inspirations that they would otherwise have in a competitive environment so you know I don't mind competition at all quite the opposite I think it's a good thing and then when we are talking about market dominance I've also said earlier right now the penetration of crypto in the global internet population is 3% that's the number of people that have had any contact with crypto at all since this revolution started so we are looking at you know a small corner of the big map that is still going to open up in the future you know once we reach 50% adoption that is something where you know you have to ask yourself where are all these people going are they going to go with the solution  you know that is low fees fast transactions are they going to go with a solution that maybe  you know not fulfilling more promise I hear you guys about Lightning right I'm going to have another look at it thank you but you know I like transactions on chain I'm not a big fan of  you know level two layers or  you know basically running all the transactions in a separate more centralized fashion and then merging it later again with the blockchain it's something that I just don't feel good about but hey you know if that is what people are going to choose as their favorite solution well then so be it you know

A: but kim aren't you too I just want to so my biggest point here that people have missed I think such a point perception you know all of the other you know 8 000 coins that come out since since bitcoin the biggest thing the biggest thing they had in common was that they all wanted to be they all wanted to be  you know a better bitcoin faster and cheaper better tech whatever the case may be and they're looking at it entirely wrong because bitcoin wasn't valuable because it was fast cheap to do valuable because it allowed people to store their wealth in a way that cannot be  infringed upon by any government or any entity or anybody it was unstoppable and that's what give its value so saying something is better check you know the google play apps on my phone I have better bitcoin it doesn't really matter they're not going to allow me to store my wealth for 100 years in a way that nobody can stop

K: well but that's where you are wrong you know it can be stopped and it can be stopped with more custodians that's that's currently where bitcoin is trending you know where it's heading to because you have Paypal in the game now you have a lot of other  you know institutionals that are basically custodials of your keys and that is much easier to shut down and regulate by any government that is hostile to crypto

A: you know much more easier to do that with bitcoin cash because they've already changed the protocol they know who to go after they just have to knock on roger's door they can be censored and shut down I think also  the custodial nature is kind of contrasted with the ability to run a node on just that raspberry pi platform and run your own routing node like it's a very it's very easy once you know you set up an brella or a my node to have a fully custodial solution and oftentimes with lightning I'm routing my own payments when I like  pay someone with strike like you know I'm not even sending it for my own wallet and I can route my see my own payments route sometimes and I think that that  shows that it's fairly decentralized still even with you know other platforms getting into the game you know I'm still routing on a raspberry pi which is pretty incredible to say yeah people have freedom so some people will use that free from the use of Paypal which is unfortunate but the freedom of the claim gives but they never have to use at any time anybody can interact with the network themselves themselves and broadcast their own transactions themselves and that is priceless and that is what you lose when you because when you care about speed and cheap then you need you know the 20 000 data center or whatever to run the network and that just knocks that whole part out it's so important yeah

K: But here's what I don't understand about this whole argument right every year we more than triple the amount of stores that can have on SSDs and behalf the price every single year the throughput on the internet is getting faster and faster with 5g technology now people are basically having a Giga bit link on their phone so all these limitations that you are talking about I don't see that in five years or ten years that the hardware or the network is going to be a limiting factor

A: so there's this chain called solana I don't know how heard of that so a bunch of qualcomm engineers started building solana and their aspect was to have the highest third one so right now they do 50 000 transactions per second and they recently launched their open source exchange so I think tech is getting there it's not like we are limited by the tech. I think  one of the downsides though is like I don't want to have to buy you know to support the network to run my own node to  you know verify my own transactions I don't want to have to buy a new SSD every year or two and you know my node as it's set right now with one terabyte is you know good for another five or six years at least and I think you know with the the way I set it up routing lightning right now it's  only cost me a couple hundred bucks and it's set for the next 10 years like

K: yeah but in in in five years we're going to get a thumb drive that is a terabyte for 20 bucks like that's not even going to be a limiting if you don't want to spend that that's fine you know that's up to you but I think the hardware and the connectivity the throughput is not going to be a limited limiting factor when it comes to block sizes or even the sizes of blockchains

A:  it's a moral hazard in a way if you say now we should do everything on chain doesn't matter but it should be cheap you have all these people doing you know less than a dollar a dollar five dollar transactions you're not talking about  slightly bigger blogs the bitcoin cash program right now website says two terabytes nothing enough stake so that's one of those 20 over hard drives 144 times a day and imagine getting into bitcoin the first time in the liner and you have to get you know petabytes worth of the data that you start you're talking about millions of dollars investing even in the future  just the starts and then you're gonna have cheaper fees because yeah

K: but look at the benefit now has with this increased valuation you know now it's actually worth it making that investment and

A: But there is no valuation increase yet can you're speculating that bitcoin cash is above 50 yen

K: I was talking about bitcoin just now

A: oh didn't you say earlier that if bitcoin cash goes to 500 billion then the miners will be more incentivized to mine bigger

K: yeah but right now we're talking about the mining equipment on for bitcoin that you can run it on a raspberry pi so I'm talking about bitcoin with this other discipline right now not about

A: and my raspberry pi by the way it takes and it took me like five days to sink the one megabyte blockchain it would you know so it's already even though we're 12 years into bitcoin technology's already not fast enough for me to you know it's starting to get kind of crazy it's already two big  because it's good enough to see maybe we should make the box smaller so that it's not so doesn't make it you know my good computer the first several

K: you know if we believe google you're going to be able to buy yourself a quantum computer in five years and then you will have none of these limitations

A: exactly so I think we are so early in the game that we don't even know what the tech is going to allow us going further so there's this protocol called the protocol what they have done is you accept that the blocks that are mined before are finalized so you don't need to verify and store them every time so you use the zero knowledge proofs to prove that those past blocks couple of days back or months back or years back are finally settled we are not going back and changing those so you no longer worry about those blocks anymore so that kind of deck will allow you to not even store a blockchain you just keep going forward but then the buyers get cheated and rewrite we need to have a history of the chain it's unavoidable right so not everyone needs to have it you can have some people have it some people can verify it and miners again are only fighting for the mining report it's all about incentives but everybody needs the ability to be somebody who has if they want us so it's a big distinction everybody doesn't have it but everybody needs to have that choice to be able absolutely everyone will have the choice but I don't think everyone will have the money and the resources right respect today utilities providers but it's going to cost millions of dollars so can I can I really do that if I not you know if I don't have the giant legal team to do so the majority of the people in the world right they're never going to have even a thousand dollars like preparing today so they can only afford a smartphone so we have to think in those perspectives like we don't have to force everyone to limit our tech just to meet certain criteria so you can do that if you want but there will be other chains you know completing chains going ahead. I just feel this puts us in a world like today where you have to have significant resources to be a part of the system and that's already disenfranchised so many bitcoin is fighting very hard and it doesn't even fight release is to make sure that it's so you know to maintain that ease of use except one megabytes which are usually too large still  so that anybody can cheaply verify for themselves if they want and they don't have to worry about being you know privileged to be a part of the system

A: I have an important question for kim do you think there's aliens going to visit us soon [Laughter] i

K: Interesting new path in this conversation I'm actually appreciating it because I'm getting a little bit tired of  

A: yeah me too me too but I wanna hear what you think about aliens

K: well nber one I think it's highly likely that there are idiots out there nber two are they going to come to visit us anytime soon I don't know I mean that is a question I can't answer but I would definitely be very fearful of that because if they have managed to create a technology to you know fly from  you know one part of the galaxy to another  they will be way more advanced as us that they may just see us as farm animals that they can farm for you know their gallbladder because that's what they like and

A: I think it's more likely that they're here for the gold or the bitcoins

K: yeah I don't know I mean I would definitely be very  you know frightened if if that first contact ever takes place that you know a big mothership arrives here you know we will be will be so inferior to them when it comes to technology that they can just easily dominate us so if it's a you know if it's a non-peaceful arrival then we're going to have big issues

A: did you watch those videos that  everybody watched and you must have watched them right the ones that the army or the navy confirmed that was legitimate unidentified aerial phenomenon or whatever the tic tac and all that stuff

K: yeah I find that really interesting and here's what my take is there is some speculation  that alien craft has you know been obtained by the us government and there is some speculation that development took place on an anti-gravity drive which basically allows you to eliminate the gravity around your craft and it allows you to accelerate at insane speeds without any g-forces  so who knows maybe this is actually a development  you know by by the military and that they have been successful in creating an anti-gravity drive that allows them to do these kind of maneuvers and that could be one of many explanations or they are actually here the aliens because one thing is sure that thing that was filmed by that jet pilot is nothing that we can do with our existing propulsion systems these types of accelerations and g-forces you couldn't even survive as a pilot so it has to be an anti-gravity  drive and you know maybe we were capable to reverse engineer whatever they have discovered in the desert in the past and created something that can do that or they are actually here you know I mean it's one of the two things

A: one thing that I'll actually quickly add to that is the naval air warfare center  which is a branch of navy research in the us actually filed patents on exactly the technology that kim is describing that's not perfectly indicative and it's always been filed by them but for technologies that they haven't exactly created yet but I mean it only shows some kind of connection or consideration of it/ yeah and it's there if we apply the same sort of authority standard that we apply to anything else they're definitely completely here the aliens protect everything  high-ranking military officials going back decades are on the record and often even on video saying yeah they're here they're real  they're foreign they're planetarily foreign the  the commanding officer of the royal air force during world war ii says of course ufos are real and they're interplanetary the cumulative evidence for the existence of ufos is quite overwhelming and I accept the fact of their existence there are astronauts saying basically the same thing on film other admirals and stuff like that  if if you know they have all of the gravitas of anyone at the who or any other authority that you know we listen to about anything it's just kind of a matter of curation but the information is out there it has the credibility it's just a matter of  deciding to give it give it the weight that it deserves in my opinion

K: well if they can hear us right now please come and visit me first give me supernatural powers so I can bring people to the world and I will be a good leader that is going to destroy all these weapons and all this [ __ ] that is going to blow up our planet so if you're listening I'm your guy

A: and if you're listening use bitcoin cash. yeah I think there's probably a good likelihood that if  you know the odds of aliens coming and visit will be the same odds as bitcoin cash winning over bitcoin probably right about that

K: I think if I was advanced if I was a member of an advanced alien race and I'm observing what is going on on this planet over the last let's say I wouldn't trust humanity with the knowledge of our existence or even with the technology that that would bring I would say humanity is not ready for this let's wait a little bit longer and hopefully when some idiots at some point in the future is pressing the button to launch a nuclear war hopefully these guys are going to make themselves known and stopping these rockets mid-air with their advanced technology you know maybe that is the time when you finally learn of their existence

A: I've heard from multiple people that the efforts of billionaires like elon musk and jeff bezos richard branson to build all this space tech is actually a kind of a bidding war to win the tech transfer from aliens to humans

K: oh that's that's an interesting theory

A: do you think the aliens use the rfp system I think they use bitcoin I'm not a developer so I don't know what that is

K: but imagine if you can buy a tesla with an anti-gravity drive you can just accelerate 0 to 60 in 0.00 [Laughter] [Music] that will that will make the tesla stock go up I think

A: a lot of pretty wild stuff out there got a couple new people came up that wanted to say something maybe we should let them but

K: I'm also yeah to move up more people hold on how do I do this people they raise their hands and then there's someone just pray something just raise your hand and I will move you up to the speaker space so go ahead feel free to do that and then

A: I'm gonna go to bed it was awesome talking to you kim I appreciate you listening to  hear our side as bitcoiners  it was a great time I'm gonna go to bed

K: all right you have a good night and no hard feelings at all is that where you're coming from and maybe there will be you know some different point of view in a couple of years and see what's happening

A: kim yeah I just wanted to jp in  back in my college days I was a huge user of mega upload and I see it as a sort of use case that netflix took advantage of to license content and sort of create an entire business model which then overhauled the entertainment landscape so I'm curious if you have any thoughts about that in relation to your career and how it all has come to fruition  in different forms over time you know

K: it's quite funny how all of this played out because very few people know that I had the website under development called mega movie and we had worked on that for two years  you know it was ready to launch and our business model was that this would be a spy that is basically owned by creators so including all of the studios and that they could monetize any link that they take down as infringing material by forwarding the users that were trying to access that infringement with the actual legitimate product and all the studios had to do was to accept a new business model where they can launch their movies globally at the same day at the same price and the problem why there was no interest for this was because Hollywood was relying on a licensing model where they would  to you know all these licensed orders in all these different countries they would pitch new movies to them basically raise the money for movies that haven't even even been made yet and selling the licenses to these movies so Hollywood basically had a business model where they could make new movies risk-free because they would raise the money in advance from the license orders now that wouldn't work anymore it doesn't work anymore in today's reality where people want to access the product around the world at the same time you know like it is now possible with netflix even though there are still limitations but netflix is now eating their lunch because they do their own productions of movies and they're launching them globally and they're cashing in on that but that is a model that I developed for them and that never even saw the day of life because they saw me as such a threat especially after we had this  promotion by a lot of celebrities that actually you know supported mega upload and they saw us as such a threat that they  destroyed us rather than you know figuring out what we can do for them and now Netflix is basically  taking  their market share

A: yeah I and I remember the last days of mega upload I think there's a lot of people on the internet especially of of my age I'm around 33  who remember exactly what role  that site played on sort of transforming the landscape so mad props

K: thank you I appreciate that I would just they leave me and my family alone you know because all I want to do is innovate and create cool tech for people you know to give them more freedom and more opportunity and this whole case has been quite a drag on you know the amount of energy that I could actually invest in things that that matter rather than spending time with lawyers and talking about the next hearing of you know after 15 hearings  the next one and it's just such a waste of time and energy and so counterproductive you know

A: wishing you look man

K: thank you thank you

A: okay  so if you look back on your history with mega upload and the power dynamics that these people have put in the game what insights do you have to say that if you if you if you were to go back in time and make certain decisions  to sort of win this war what would you have done

K: I would have done what Rapidshare did our largest shareholder I would have hired a lobby for lobbying firm in washington and wired some money to politicians to leave us alone that is literally how the game works if you pay they will leave you alone and that's what Rapidshare did and Rapidshare never got the problem that we had even though they were our larger competitor and basically had exactly the same service that we had so lobbying works you know if you can  basically have a law firm in washington representing and making donations to political parties and people that are running for government they will leave you alone. Yeah unfortunately that is how the world works you know it's so corrupt and so dirty and hollywood has made so many contributions to the democratic party and when chris not became the chairman of the mpaa he basically threatened the democratic party and the Obama administration that they are not going to help them with their reelection campaign you know and that pressure was enough to create this novel [ __ ] case against mega upload by the way nothing like this has happened before megaupload and nothing has like this has happened since mega upload so it's still the only case of its kind  and it was all paid for by Hollywood.

A: crazy yeah pretty crazy so it's good to have you in our crypto space now than any other space now

K: I'm very excited about this you know I was excited when the internet people first you know became a thing and I remember vividly how that all played out and during the first internet bubble it actually gave me my start and I think blockchain technology is just as important as the internet was back then and the opportunities are really left right and center that too many to you know pick from and I think it's such an exciting space so yeah definitely you know I'm totally excited to be part of this whole crypto generation now

A: so when you when you talk about bitcoin right  the what do you think have other greatest sort of  forces against bitcoin right now or forces against this whole decentralization aspect and where do you think  changes are required in the system  that would allow us or allow you know everybody as a whole like crypto community to sort of  tackle those problems

K: yeah the greatest threat  to bitcoin is the US government  I have no doubt that they are aware of the lack of benefit that the government will have if crypto becomes mainstream and the adjustment that it would take you know to figure out how to finance their debt and how to finance their spending because if you can't just go and print more money and put it in the marketplace to finance your stuff you are finding yourself in a completely new situation where you have to adjust your spending habits and as we all know  even as individuals that is not easy when you are you know living currently with let's say fifteen thousand or twenty thousand dollars to spend a month and then someone comes around and tells you hey  you know you can't have this money anymore you're now having to live with two thousand dollars you will also be like [ __ ] you I'm not going to accept you, you are invading my space and my spending habits and my lifestyle so the us government sooner or later is going to make  moves to  you know ban crypto and  potentially   destroy it but you know I think the stronger the crypto movement becomes and the more users use it around the world and the more jurisdictions we have outside of the US that embrace crypto the better you know so we need to accelerate this is what I'm saying like we need to accelerate mass adoption that should be our number one goal not fighting between each other not pointing the finger at each other but really realizing the opportunity that we have and the lack of time that we have to reach critical mass so that we are not going to be easily right

A: yeah I totally agree with that  when it comes to the utility of crypto coins right and and when it comes to bitcoin specifically or other cryptocurrencies  what sort of utilities you see apart from like this  for bitcoin that we can sort of adopt that would reduce the entropy of  or like reduce the energy required to sort of you know  push the crypto narrative to to large  scales of of people

K: hold on my wife is coming in with a with a german ruler that she's cooked for the first time and I'm about to try it hold on I'm just having a chat with some of my followers oh my god this is delicious really nice [Music] okay guys I think I'm going to  have dinner soon so let's let's do another 10 minutes and then I got to take off but you know what I'm enjoying this so much I'm going to do this more regularly and you are always welcome to join in and whenever you want to say something just raise your hand and then I will make sure that I move you up to the to the stage

A: thank you thank you thank you I have a question real quick if you don't mind sure I'm just I'm checking out your new project here I'm just curious it will there be like a are you hoping to have like a marketplace let's just say for artists musicians is this intended to be like a spotify type thing or is it what will be more individual stores

K: so  I think a marketplace is not the right description because we're not going to host anything what we're going to provide is the technology  you know an executable or a website that you know can that anyone can   run or you know plugins for browsers that anyone can offer that will  include our open source software which is basically like winzip but it allows you instead of just creating a container with files in them it allows you to create this encrypted container that you can only open with a cryptocurrency payment and all of that logic everything will be integrated in that file and merged with the content that you are trying to sell so the content that you're trying to sell will be inside of this encrypted container and the only way to open it is with a crypto payment so we are more of a software  provider and you know once this is out there anyone can implement it on their websites and can allow their users to create file shops on their sites so we are not I'm not seeing this venture as one where we are hosting anything for our users

A: okay that makes sense so it's on an individual level but theoretically if say like a record label wanted to host the store with all of their artists on it and have all this stuff unlocked at once rather than individually that would be possible with it

K: yes absolutely I mean that's what we want anyone who has something to sell online  can use this to create a file shop and then  you know that that in itself is probably going to create this new ecosystem where you will find you know hundreds of thousands of websites that offer their catalogs or file shops so we are not hosting those this is this is a pure technology play  and that's why I think you know it's quite unlimited in its growth potential

A:so you just fix the nft problem

K: I hope so I I hope that you know people will be able to allow more internet users an opportunity to participate in the marketplace because right now it's all these big gatekeepers that are making all the money but imagine you know if you if you can create a file shop and turn the entire internet into your sales force and they can just integrate their wallet id into the file shop  you know get a get a special promotion  file and then sell that and make money by selling your content I mean it's beautiful you know the growth of something like this is  the growth potential I think it's big

A: when will this be available okay

K: we are planning to launch  q4 of this year but this is something that still needs a substantial security reviews because I don't want to release it prematurely I want to make sure  that you know the source code has been peer reviewed by top security people  and we can we will only be able to do that once we feel that the software has  you know is beyond beta and how long that will take I'm not sure but I hope q4 of this year if not early next year

A: so that's great you're taking part of the security review but you know one advantage of the big gatekeepers is that it gives the user the control of their identity they can reset their passwords so can you talk about how use how the user can secure that identity on k.m and if

K: I think I think given that I'm just have five more minutes and I think the topic would probably bore most of the people here I think the time is better used for me to make my little exit speech right before I go to there so what I want to say to everyone is thank you for coming it's a pleasure for me to use this app because it allows me to connect more closely with my followers and I really enjoyed the debate tonight and you know I hope you guys are coming back when when I tweet next time about doing something on clubhouse and I will try and do this more frequently and maybe I may start streaming  you know I'm thinking maybe two three months from now start streaming and give some people a platform to share their ideas and maybe raise some capital or help them with advice so that's something you guys can look forward to and I'm not I'm not going to take off because my wife has cooked delicious roulades for me and I'm going to enjoy them now and I thank you all very much it was a real pleasure to happen seeds bye you

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