Numbers/links on the left is the time in seconds that dialogue is spoken, clicking takes you to that time in the youtube video - Don't Trust, Verify!
0 - and i don't think it's wise to come into this we're kind of like uh this is the hornet's nest now it's not really the
5 - debate we've got cube.com in here should we try and rescue him from his
10 - world bring him up world of [ __ ] well that's a whole different conversation isn't it let's rescue kim
17 - look if you're letting kim does come on you should let eric on i think yeah eric should come back up but
22 - kim.com should come up too but like we've had me and jc had lots of conversations with kim.com like two
28 - conversations with him on here already and he still says the same things can they do the same thing
33 - can they debate against each other i was so excited and his project and then he got into
38 - bitcoin cash let's bring up both of them and make them debate bch versus
44 - e is he in the room right now we're talking about another later future he's here here
53 - come on come come i mean i think he comes he's he's he's pretty open and willing to
58 - talk hey do you mind if i imagine back holding bch in 2021
65 - less than one percent of kim's oh he claims he doesn't have any he says he doesn't hold on a second hold
73 - on a second real quick i just want to let everyone know kim.com on the stage been uh you know
78 - a big figure in the tech space for a very very long time just want to introduce you to the stage
83 - and welcome to the den of vipers kim thank you so much for coming up did you uh want to introduce yourself a little
87 - bit yeah thanks guys for having me and thanks for mentioning the beautiful soda
94 - tweet that has gotten so much attention um by the way just to be clear i love bitcoin
100 - i've never stopped loving bitcoin um so you know just because we're not on the same team right now
108 - uh i think you can still treat me fairly because i've been promoting bitcoin since
118 - come on guys please do not do that please do not do that you guys let's keep it cool here he's not just just
125 - introducing himself kim please come up on the stage safe space for you to speak
130 - um i hope that no one has we might need to write it down again make everybody not an admin except for
137 - dennis okay yeah i think i should uh you should you should d-mod
143 - on clubhouse and when you break 15 moderators the room just doesn't work yeah that's a very good
149 - hypothesis i'm not sure how many of you are okay with sticking around after being
152 - shoved down to the audience and pulled back up but if you're interested in that we can have
158 - all right kim you wanna everyone's going down and i'll bring you back up
166 - let's do it everyone's self self dropping everyone who's a moderator drop down and
171 - and i'll bring it back up go ahead everybody yep yep
179 - keep going i know you guys come on it's tough [ ] [ ] chinese all right here
189 - we go hey i have a question for kim okay come here hold on hold on hold on
197 - this is moving very it's hard for me to remember everyone raise your hand all right not everyone
202 - sorry back up just okay i'm nice to see you again i'm back
210 - you're back don't worry it's just me and you now no one can drop you down to the audience would love
216 - to hear you start over from the beginning on your introduction um you talked about how you are um you're
221 - pro bitcoin but you you're over there with bitcoin cash and i guess a lot of us
225 - that are bitcoiners feel you know you're like a pretty smart guy you've been around the industry for a long time
231 - kind of you're into the cypherpunk stuff uh you're a rebel and so am i you know why why bitcoin cash and why do
239 - the arguments that you you've obviously heard the arguments for bitcoin but why do they not seem to land
244 - with you as far as um the whole decentralization aspect with bitcoin cash where
249 - the blocks get too big it can't be used as global money yes so i don't know how much you still
258 - heard uh before was removed um but what i wanted to say is you know i've always been a supporter of
266 - bitcoin and when we started development on k.i.m our intention was uh to do this with
274 - lightning and liquid and and you know make it all work but in our testing environment and developing
279 - um you know and trying to implement lightning and liquid for over a year we just got increasingly frustrated
286 - because it didn't work you know and we've run large uh volume tests and ran into scalability issues
295 - and ran into so many problems that we had to start looking
299 - uh for an alternative and we ended up with bitcoin cash as you know a test environment that
305 - worked really well but but as far as the argument i understand the transaction thorough put
310 - and that's been an argument for in a debate holly contested for a very long time but
314 - how do you come to grips with the the decentralization aspect that's what we're all really here for
319 - we're here for the decentralization we're here to to essentially say [ __ ] you to the government
325 - [ __ ] you to the the big banks and the fed and that we are in control now we control the
330 - money and how do you how do you how do you see bitcoin cash continuing on into the future
335 - when the blocks are going to get so big it's going to be a glo potentially global money right at this point
340 - um and when you make the blocks that big the blockchain gets massive uh nobody's going to be able to run a
346 - full node and nobody's going to be able to have the bandwidth to do this so there's
350 - going to be very few nodes on the network what like how do you come to grips with
354 - that with that part of the argument well i don't really agree with uh you know the issue about
361 - large or small blocks because the hardware is getting better the you know the availability of of cheap
369 - storage is getting better every year uh you know i so i just don't agree with the
375 - with the uh consensus that bitcoin core made at the end to keep the box small i thought that was not necessary because
384 - you know we were just in the last five years i mean look how much
388 - cheaper storage has become how much better the servers are now i just didn't see the necessity for
396 - keeping small blocks so when it comes to the argument i understand moore's law
404 - you know the technology that we have is getting better it's getting cheaper i totally agree with you in some regards
409 - that that that is an important factor when it comes to this whole argument but i don't know i
415 - in my personal opinion i was i kind of came onto the scene in the middle of this fight right in the
420 - middle of this war and i came to the conclusion that moore's law is it is working but it's
425 - not traveling fast enough and essentially what's going to happen is
428 - if you decide to scale bitcoin cash as global money the amount of transactions that would be
434 - required in order to to scale bitcoin cash you're going to be talking about a blockchain ledger that's
440 - which with bitcoin it's currently 350 some gigs but with bitcoin cash it could be
445 - not just tara tear hashes or um uh well not just but it could be terabytes but petabytes yes thank you jc
454 - and so now it's like you're talking about stuff that's not even available to the retail
459 - consumer and i think the whole point about decentralized money
463 - it's money that the individual can you know self-verify and self-audit and i don't know if that will be
469 - possible in the bitcoin cash world well the the way bitcoin cash is operating now you're
478 - uh you're probably totally right but we are of course also innovating and since i started getting involved
484 - i've basically uh you know gotten a lot of uh developers interested to
490 - start working with us and of course we're also going to work on innovations and solutions
494 - that are solving that problem i don't see it as a major issue okay so i guess yeah i mean that's
501 - really where we just come to a divide because to me the idea of bitcoin is the ability to
508 - to be self-sovereign it's the ability to verify that i own the bitcoin that you know my
514 - node says i own and in a bitcoin cash world i i don't think someone that's on
520 - a low net worth status which which i wouldn't consider myself to be high net worth but
525 - um someone that's a lower end of the spectrum they're not going to be able to afford to self-verify and i think
531 - going into the future that's going to be super important otherwise you're in my opinion you're just going to have
535 - centralization of power in the hands of the elite and the rich once again which is really
540 - kind of the system that we live in today so i guess that's kind of where we divide i really think it's important to
545 - have a currency a global currency that empowers the individual
550 - and not groups and not large conglomerates and i and i see what you're saying you know you're
554 - you're building stuff out you're working on ways to make it better but do you not see the value in you know
560 - someone on the low end of the spectrum someone who doesn't have a lot of money you know
564 - being able to audit and and verify that they own the bitcoin or the bitcoin cash that the
570 - network says they have yeah but that's just assuming that we can't do that you know i mean the the
577 - assumption that if we if we grow to 100 times our current size we wouldn't be able to do that
583 - in five years from now it's just wrong because you know of course we're going to innovate we're going to
589 - make sure that uh that we can handle the traffic the thing that i don't understand and by
595 - the way thank you for having me here and uh thank you for being you know friendly because i do
601 - not like the tension between the different tribes i think it's counterproductive
607 - i think competition is good uh but let me just say this you know bitcoin has evolved now
615 - to be this store of value and when i see people like michael saylor giving interviews and talking about
623 - how bitcoin is this new bank of the internet and it's really just for saving your
630 - your asset it's not really about spending you know i feel bad because if we are ever in a
637 - situation where governments decide they have enough of crypto and they want to regulate it and destroy it
644 - if we don't have critical mass with actual utility where people are using it every day and
649 - we have you know hundreds of millions of users actually paying for stuff with crypto
655 - we are running into real difficulties defending ourselves you know this whole crypto revolution
661 - depends on usage and that's my main concern hold on hold on hold on i got i can i
669 - can keep going here and then maybe we'll maybe we'll bring up some other people to talk uh but i'm gonna try to keep
674 - answering and talking to one-on-one with kim for just a moment longer so you brought up a
678 - few you brought up a few different points there and i think i'm going to tackle
683 - the first one which is that you're saying that michael saylor is you know saying it's a store of value
688 - and it's and it's and it's you know trying to change the narrative on bitcoin and you know you could say
695 - that you could say that but it's really not so much that the narrative has changed
699 - as much as our understanding of this technology has changed in the beginning people were talking
705 - about it you know global payments global payments medium of exchange but we all kind of took a step back and
710 - many in this room probably already knew this but it didn't become common knowledge until
713 - more in the last four or five years but we all kind of took a step back and we realized
717 - well in order for something to be a medium exchange it has to go through an evolutionary
722 - path and that evolutionary path is the same path that gold took gold started out as a collectible a
729 - nascent collectible and people liked it it was shiny rocks right and you know it's portable and it was
735 - malleable they could do cool things but they could make jewelry out of it and then eventually over time enough
741 - people started collecting it that it became a store of value and we all started kind of
746 - storing our wealth in this cool thing that everybody wanted to collect and eventually when enough when there
751 - was enough people who saw it as a store of value gold eventually became a medium exchange
756 - people started bartering with it you know kind of became this intermediary for for a world that had
761 - kind of uh been birthed out of just purely trading goods back and forth so
767 - if you wanted a cow and you had chickens you know you had to go through maybe multiple trades in order to you
773 - know get the cow but now you could just trade gold and that was a big leap for society right
779 - eventually what happened was went from a medium of exchange then it went to a unit of account
783 - and that's the full transition of something becoming a monetary you know a perfect money in a sense
789 - right sound money and that's that's the trajectory that we see going on
794 - with bitcoin right now is it was a collectible in the beginning it's magic internet money we all thought it was
799 - just this kind of cool unique thing no one really really understood it at all
804 - uh just fun thing to have and then it you know it's going through this path where
808 - people thought it was becoming a medieval exchange but in fact it needed to go through that first phase
813 - that second phase which is the store value phase and in my opinion we're in that phase
818 - right now we will be in that phase for some time and that's that value that's coming on
823 - to this kind of goes into what you're saying on one of your second points but that
826 - value coming into bitcoin is what protects bitcoin not the actual users themselves
832 - the value that's being accrued onto the onto the bitcoin network is what protects it not necessarily an
838 - individual user um so i could see your argument where you're saying that
843 - we need to get mass adoption with users but i just see it differently we need to hit mass adoption with value
854 - yeah i mean i can respond to that um you know my main concern has always been since i got involved in
861 - crypto early on that the governments are going to see this as a threat because in reality
867 - there's no benefit for the us government to support bitcoin or any other crypto for that
874 - matter you know eventually you are competing with uh their money printing power
880 - and the bigger bitcoin becomes the larger the threat uh becomes and sooner or later i can
887 - guarantee you uh the u.s government and many other governments are going to make moves
892 - to try and uh regulate crypto and ban it so with that in mind let's just assume for a second that i'm right and
900 - that is the future we are facing my objective is to really have a cryptocurrency
908 - that has mass usage because if you have hundreds of millions of users around the world receiving their payroll
916 - paying for their groceries paying for something simple like soda or coffee or you know their rent or whatever then it
924 - becomes much harder to shut it down when you on the other hand
929 - have a store of value that sits now primarily uh you know and it's always increasing
935 - with institutionals and the one percent that see it more and more as a as an investment
941 - vehicle then it's much easier to shut down because if the us government regulates
946 - you know all of those one percenters are going to comply and basically hand over their bitcoin
952 - and then it's game over you know so this is where i'm coming from and i like everyone to understand
958 - this i'm really not against bitcoin i'm trying to see
962 - crypto as a whole to succeed and i think from my point of view given my experience with the us government my
970 - understanding of how it works how they operate u.s empire will not want to lose
977 - its power by controlling the money supply and being able to do sanctions and all
983 - these things that they do to to maintain power as an empire you know i just don't
989 - want them to destroy the crypto revolution you know and and that is really where
994 - i'm coming yes so let me connect with you no kim hold on hold on hold on please please hold on
999 - i completely agree with you i think that is the the number one threat right that's the
1004 - threat that we've all talked about for a very long time and i agree with you completely that you
1010 - that we agree on that point right but the but you're saying that mass adoption by users is what's going
1015 - to stop it and that's kind of where i disagree i personally believe that
1021 - especially in america the big money interests are the ones who are in control and if
1027 - the big money interests own bitcoin then it's going to provide not only resources but it's going to
1033 - provide lobbying money it's going to provide all of this infrastructure
1037 - of value that is going to help protect bitcoin from some sort of government state level
1041 - attack and when you have these big money interests coming in the banks the investment funds the hedge fund
1048 - managers these guys they don't want to lose money they're not just going to bend over and be like
1053 - yeah sure you know let's just kill bitcoin they're going to defend it with every
1057 - single means let me just tell you what i think that this this is um
1064 - you know an important point to interrupt you there just like the us government the banks
1070 - don't like bitcoin either you know you are you we're changing the status quo
1076 - right the banks will not be able to operate as they have in the past when bitcoin succeeds even as a store of
1082 - value you know so that you think for a moment that the banks or the big hedge funds
1088 - are on your side i think is is wrong and they are actually
1092 - actively lobbying uh politicians to try and do something against crypto they are spending
1100 - a lot of dollars to make sure that you guys don't have a future yeah so hold on please please no one
1108 - jump in at this point i i i can continue a little bit longer with 101 and then we'd be more than happy to
1113 - bring some people in but i think it's important that we keep this conversation one-on-one for the sake
1116 - of um stability of the conversation okay so i agree with your point that this is this is where it comes down right like
1122 - the government's that's the ultimate battle right but you you're saying that the big banks are
1127 - going to lobby against us but now it's almost like we have and let me finish this point and i want to make
1132 - one more point we have this team of money on our side though we have
1136 - the hedge fund manners and all these other guys on our side that's kind of that point there right and we can debate
1139 - that all day but here's here's a question that i have and i'll kind of just continue talking
1143 - about it maybe you can jump in if you want to if you want to answer the question but
1147 - what do you think the government cares more about do you think the united states cares more about
1154 - the dollar and its power for gold and its power well 100 the dollar because it's
1164 - printing okay so you know hold on and then i'll answer that's pretty much gonna stop you
1168 - real quick and ask you one more question do you see bitcoin cash more like the dollar
1173 - or more like gold and which is a bigger threat united states okay so then so then you
1181 - would naturally agree that bitcoin cash would be seen as more of a threat to the united states hegemony than
1187 - bitcoin itself which is more like gold and the fed chairman actually went as far as to say that
1192 - last week no i i heard that but let's not be naive here for a second i mean you guys
1200 - are also saying once lightning is fully operational and perfect uh that it can be used
1207 - for transactions so you are also competing with the us dollar right but it's a true but it's like a
1211 - trojan horse right it's like a trojan horse so we're starting as a store of value
1215 - and that puts us in a safer position eventually and i don't even think it's going to happen in the next 10 20 years
1221 - sorry go ahead can you go ahead yeah now i have to admit that the strategy so far has been working out fine you
1228 - know i really think that bitcoin has come a long way and i can see why certain decisions were
1234 - made but it's just naive to think just because you're focusing on store value
1239 - now that that is going to protect you from regulation later
1244 - because even as a store of value you are competing with the power of the us government
1249 - and they will not have it but this is my whole point i guess kim and maybe we can
1256 - we can finish here we don't need to go we don't need to go all day i understand that you're not going to
1261 - come in this room and you're not going to leave agreeing with me i don't think i don't think either of us have the
1265 - intention of coming leaving the room but just more so if we
1269 - i hope at the end of this room that we can just keep an open mind about everything that's going on and i think
1276 - that when you really look at what's important to the us government the most important part
1280 - of the us government's power is it's it's the dollar it's the petro dollar it's the it's the forcing everybody to
1287 - actually use the dollar but when we're using bitcoin for when we're using automation
1293 - when we're using bitcoin we're using it as a store of value now today we're not using it
1298 - as a dollar so when you're using bitcoin cash so that's essentially that's essentially the argument that
1305 - you're making that you're competing directly with the us dollar and maybe lightning is down the path
1309 - whatever right but at this point right now today we're competing with gold and bitcoin
1314 - cash is competing with the us dollar yeah and let me just reply to that and please give me a minute because this is
1322 - important and i want everyone to understand that i'm really your friend i'm not your
1326 - enemy so i think when you hear me when you hear me you will understand
1330 - why i'm saying this eventually of course the goal of crypto is to replace fiat currency
1338 - which is currently being used to you know have a license to print money to create more and more debt to bring
1346 - the government into more and more trouble it's unsustainable
1350 - and sooner or later that house of cards is going to come crashing down when that happens we need to have
1356 - something in place that can take uh the rain and that can be the future money
1362 - and it should be crypto i know i agree with you but i but do you think what's what do you think is going to replace
1369 - what do you think is going to replace the us dollar do you think it's going to be
1375 - um a centralized bitcoin cash or do you think it's going to be a centralized cbdc central bank digital currency well
1384 - i don't agree with the statement that bitcoin cash is centralized right but let's
1388 - not dwell on that okay so let's move on from that point let's just let's just assume that is uh that
1393 - is an unfair accusation okay i won't eliminate it with you because currently
1398 - that's a hotly con you know contested point but it's not the point of the conversation where we are right now why
1403 - don't you go ahead yes so and by the way you know like i said
1409 - the more usage bch will gain and the more market shared gains the smaller this uh problem uh
1418 - that you perceive of you know decentralization being an issue for bch is going to go away right well no i
1425 - sorry i have to stop you there though the more bitcoin cash gets used the more centralized it will become because the
1431 - bigger the blocks get and the more full the blocks become the bigger the blockchain gets and the
1435 - bigger the blockchain gets the the more computing power you need the more broad bandwidth you need
1439 - and the more storage space you need for the blockchain which means the amount of people who can run a node is becomes
1444 - limited it becomes shrinking and shrinking over time especially if this becomes something that happens rapidly
1448 - yeah but sorry that would only be the case if there was no evolution of hardware and
1455 - pricing in the space but that's not correct you know we get more and more
1460 - powerful machines more and more powerful uh storage and at cheaper and cheaper
1465 - prices so you can't really assume that it's harder to run today than it was 10 years ago
1471 - and so i mean and that's bitcoin with one megabyte buck or two if you want to come
1476 - segway it's harder to run today than it was yeah look i hear that i hear those
1483 - arguments right but let's just put that to one side for now and let's talk about what we need to do
1489 - to make sure that when the governments decide and it's going to happen uh to regulate crypto and and and
1497 - and push it out of existence you know what is the best way to defend ourselves just assuming
1503 - that these banks you are mentioning are not going to be on your side are actually going to be quite happy
1509 - with the government so uh so just a second yeah just let me finish so let's just assume
1518 - that these are not going to come to bitcoin's rescue right the only thing that is going to
1524 - save crypto is if the masses say we want this to be our money we have enough
1532 - of your corrupt financial system it's not going to be the banks they are the status quo they don't want anything
1540 - to change they make you know triple digit billion dollars every year why the hell would they
1545 - change it the federal reserves feeds them interest-free money that they invest in stocks and through that they
1553 - control you know over 50 percent of the voting rights in in the u.s
1558 - economy in this in the listed companies you know they are not going to want to depart
1564 - from that power so the only chance in my mind right and i've been thinking a lot about
1570 - this over the years is that we have a mass of people hundreds of millions of people
1577 - standing up to their governments and saying no we've had this old financial system
1582 - enough it was corrupt it led to this you know downfall which is going to come will have a severe
1589 - economic depression coming up uh you know in the next two three years and then people will be looking for an
1596 - alternative and the best alternative is going to be a crypto that is actually being utilized on mars
1603 - with uh you know really mass penetration in all the different markets and that's what i'm trying to focus on
1610 - and please don't hate me for it i'm trying just as much as you guys uh to see
1615 - crypto succeed and to have a future and to survive the coming crypto wars
1620 - which i'm 100 certain are going to come listen so i think that i appreciate you coming up here and
1629 - there are a lot of people that you know they really feel very hotly about this and as you can see it was
1635 - difficult to even you know have a conversation because it's very difficult there's a lot on the
1639 - line right now i agree with you the whole essentially the whole entire financial system is on the line at this
1644 - point but i did but the points where i really really disagree with
1647 - you know your assumption that mass adoption by people by users is what's going to protect
1653 - the network the network is not protected by individual users with wallets those wallets don't do anything to defend the
1660 - network whatsoever the thing that defends the networks is the nodes the nodes defend the network
1665 - from an outside attack and the only reason you only way you can continue to grow the node
1670 - network or maintain the node network is to keep the block size small otherwise it becomes
1675 - nearly impossible for individual users individual people all over the planet to run a node
1682 - we're very privileged in the united states and some other western countries and maybe
1686 - some one nor wealthier countries north korea there's many countries where we're very privileged right but there's
1691 - a lot of places all over the world where they don't have the ability to spend too high it's like two to three
1696 - hundred dollars right now to run a note and that's if you want to buy you know the cheap cheap cheap products
1700 - imagine if you 10x imagine if you 100x which is what you're talking about you're talking about going from
1706 - one percent of the pap the planet using bitcoin to a hundred percent of the planet using
1711 - bitcoin so that's a hundred x from where we are right now right and the amount of transactions that you
1716 - would have to put through that network would just be insane you'd be talking about like
1722 - amounts of storage that no human being no individual could afford to store which would mean that the centralization
1728 - of the nodes would be massively increased to maybe one to five tops users in the world which means that
1734 - the government at that point could go with a gun to one of those to one or to the fall five
1740 - and tell them that they have to shut down and that's really what makes bitcoin so unique compared to so
1747 - many of the other cryptocurrencies out there and all the other systems that people have tried to build
1751 - is the decentralization the decentralization of the nodes is what protects the network against a
1756 - state-level attack and so that's why i think it's so important
1761 - i will sacrifice everything i will sacrifice any aspect the smart contracts [ __ ] the
1766 - smart contracts the transaction through put screw the transaction through a point it's
1770 - it's so much more important that we protect the decentralization of the network and i will literally die
1775 - to protect the decentralization of the network i totally get that you say that this is a big
1780 - war and it's so important and i 100 agree with you but the big war is over the
1784 - decentralization it's not over users the users don't protect the network the nodes do
1791 - yeah and and we do agree on decentralization i just don't agree with your assumption
1796 - that bch can't maintain a high level of decentralization let me tell you what i think is going to happen
1802 - people will be running notes on their phones just look at the evolution of mobile chips and how powerful the latest
1808 - iphone 12 is wait another five to ten years and you will have phones that are as
1813 - powerful as the most powerful servers that we are using today
1817 - and they will not be unaffordable and you can basically while you charge your phone at night and you're not using it
1822 - you can run a node you know i've been thinking about this for many years i proposed uh
1828 - basically an alternative internet with mega net you can google my name and google mega net and see
1833 - what i've said about this in the past and it's actually being developed right now it's called lokinet
1838 - an australian company has built it so i'm not that concerned about the nodes i just
1845 - don't see this as a valid reason not to focus on mass adoption of crypto with with uh
1853 - you know millions and millions of people using it for for real life uh users that is what's
1859 - going to script all that in my opinion yeah so i mean it's not i'll let some other people jump in
1864 - here if they want to if they want to politely engage in the conversation um but i want to make the last point
1869 - though it's not true i really don't think politeness is necessary right now because what he's
1874 - been saying hold on he lies in 20 minutes it's very frustrating because you're not calling him out on
1879 - all his lies and this is this is very frustrating for me because you basically agree
1885 - i'm not to let him speak about whatever like he's he's giving talking points from 2017 jimmy
1890 - jimmy like this is very frustrating listen if you have the ability to debate the points
1895 - then debate the points okay but kim my last point is that i want to say this and that we can we can end it here and
1901 - you can run you can take off if you want to um i appreciate you coming on a lot of
1904 - people are probably going to give me a lot of heat for this conversation but i think it's
1908 - important that we have these conversations okay um and jimmy jimmy and jimmy i would
1912 - love for you to talk i just want you to back and forth with some level of politeness okay
1918 - i don't care if you think he's a scammer that's that's aside the point if you have the right
1922 - if you have the truth speak the truth okay that's all i have to say well i i don't like how you kicked everybody out
1927 - there there's a whole group of people that would have backed you up listen that
1930 - wasn't even my idea jimmy that was not my idea okay yeah but like the thing is like like you
1936 - basically like gave him a platform for 20 minutes to just spout his lies i don't like that
1944 - i think everyone who listened to me here can agree that i'm not lying i'm just saying my
1950 - point of view that's all listen let's i want to get back to just finishing the conversation
1956 - if the other people can have the conversation politely then that's not the conversation quietly
1960 - otherwise the conversation isn't going to happen at all okay so kim my last little little point
1965 - here is that it's not just about the storage of on whatever it is your phone right it's
1969 - also about the bandwidth the amount of bandwidth that you would need to be able to process and validate
1974 - these transactions it's not going to be possible you're you're saying okay what's the
1978 - timeline what's the timeline do we have 10 years 10 years left all right i'm i'm really
1984 - educated about this stuff right so let's talk about bandwidth because i know bandwidth
2003 - i understand bandwidth better than anybody we now have 5g we now have stuff like starlink we are
2009 - going to have terabit connectivity on mobile devices neither bandwidth nor storage are going
2017 - to be a limiting factor for decentralization i can tell you that okay but the point is kim you have a
2024 - timeline here we are running out of time the clock is ticking how many years do we have left
2030 - maybe 10 at most before we really need to make this move and that's why i see you're so desperate
2035 - and i wouldn't say desperate but you're such a rush to get people under bitcoin cash but in
2040 - 10 years you're essentially saying let's move the entire planet onto bitcoin cash within the next 10 to
2045 - 15 years you're gonna 100x the bitcoin blockchain you think a phone you think a phone is going to be able to
2050 - store like a 50 terabytes of data of information
2055 - i just don't see that happening in the next 10 years moore's law would never be able to keep up with that rate of
2060 - of improvement i just don't see it happening but you know obviously we're going to agree to disagree
2065 - i think that you know we kind of come to the conclusion of conversation and i saw jimmy left i wish he would have
2071 - stayed and had the conversation but if you want to say one last point because james go ahead
2077 - yeah i would really like to say i would really like to say one last point if i may and then i will stay and listen
2083 - because i like listening to you guys okay my last point that i like to make is
2088 - just for a moment cut me some slack you know i'm not here to sell a scam i'm not here to promote
2096 - something that isn't working i'm not here to undermine uh
2102 - bitcoin you know bitcoin is in a very good position and you guys have done an awesome job
2107 - and i've absolutely no problems with you the only thing that i see that is is not fair is this
2113 - name calling calling me a liar calling me a scammer
2118 - saying that i've been bought when in fact i don't even own a single bch you know it's just ridiculous how tribal
2126 - things have become and how aggressive things have become you know i think we should we are all in the same
2132 - boat we all want crypto to succeed it's okay to have
2136 - competition because competition means more innovation it's going to uh further bitcoin as well if others
2143 - have great ideas and uh you know execute on them and grow some market share and then you guys see
2148 - oh we maybe we changed something a little bit here a little bit there you know it's a
2152 - good thing it's not a negative thing and i would really like us all to come back to a space where we can
2157 - be friends like i'm not okay jim i i i'm gonna let you go ahead james um
2164 - cam i just want to say thank you i i have points i could say to that but um it's
2169 - been enough for me for today james do you want to say something yeah first off kim nice to meet you first
2175 - time we've ever spoken i want to say that i actually admire what i see in you as a
2179 - really intense practicality it seems like you have it seems like we are co-belligerents
2185 - in a a fight that we it seems the destination we have is is shared it seems that we see two
2191 - different ways of getting there and this is just technology right and you seem to have
2196 - adopted a different approach to the technology than i currently hold for instance
2200 - and i'm i have a couple very practical questions but what i hear you saying when you when you're talking
2205 - about bitcoin cash being good because of the big black guys to me it almost seems to me that that is
2211 - somewhat irrelevant whether it's better or not because it seems to me almost like uh if
2216 - you were telling me there's a better peer-to-peer file sharing protocol than bittorrent
2220 - and i would say to you yeah but bittorrent is where the consensus is there's already all this
2224 - content shared on bittorrent and i kind of feel like the bitcoin network the main bitcoin network
2230 - de facto is like that bittorrent network in in other words it's where it whether it's the best or
2236 - not it's where the consensus is and just practically how would you even go about pulling the consensus off of
2242 - bitcoin to bitcoin cash that's the first question and second question
2247 - it seems like you've had a bad experience with lightning but i've been seeing
2251 - tons of innovation in lightning and much much improvements in lightning and i see that bitcoin is a layer i call
2258 - it a layer 7 protocol because it's on the layer 7 of the osi stack it's networking for money and it's slow
2264 - but that's fine the block size is not a problem because we can
2268 - and should build layers on it like we've been doing for 30 years which is like lightning for instance we
2274 - have a bot in that one of the groups that we're in and telegram associated with one of the uh one of the
2279 - uh clubhouse rooms and we have a lightning bot in there and we've been sending each other lightning
2284 - payments and even doing crowdfunding like today in other words i feel like the infrastructure is
2289 - being built and it just seems to me out of left field that it would be like let's go do
2294 - something else and start yeah all right let me let me answer your first question
2303 - the first question um is um can you hear me sorry i'm getting a call well kim's taking the call just
2319 - everybody that wants to come up here if you want to have james you did a great job there if you want to come up and
2323 - have a direct conversation i don't notice anything that kim is saying it's just
2328 - it's a different sorry differing of opinion so far obviously some people see kim as a
2332 - scammer people see him as a scammer but if you want to come up here and have a
2337 - conversation and i'm going gonna create a space where people can have a conversation
2341 - i know so many people already messaging me telling me to [ __ ] off for this already so
2346 - uh but we're just gonna keep going a little bit longer okay james thank you for being for what you said so far
2350 - um kim did you want to respond yes so let me respond to the first question right
2358 - you you say there's consensus and you know right now of course bitcoin is dominating the crypto space
2364 - and we all acknowledge that right no question about it but it's less than four percent
2370 - of internet users that are even into crypto at this point it means there's still a 96 market that
2376 - has to be captured right so we are early in the game crypto is still in its infancy
2383 - leadership can change you know with new innovations new ideas and also good marketing you know can bring new
2391 - people into the space and you know killer apps and all that
2396 - so you know i think it's way too early to call a winner you know and i think uh because there's so much market share
2405 - to take uh bitcoin would be well advised to do more to gain more market share from
2411 - day-to-day users that actually want to transact in micro payments you know
2417 - oh man i could speak so much on this i work for lightning isn't lightning gonna do that
2424 - that's what it is doing it is doing that but did you know right now in the united states you can buy anything you want
2429 - at any website you want using lightning as long as that website accepts visa because of a visa partnership i mean
2435 - it's already happening people can use that and it works great it works amazing i work for a company
2440 - right now that lets people play video games like counter strike and put as little as
2444 - like five cents up into a pot and then compete and then get the like if it's 25 cents
2450 - in the pot they get that when they when they're done and we built the wallet for gamers it's
2454 - great you have gamer tags you can keep people on discord you can keep people on telegram it all goes to
2459 - the same account it's super seamless super easy to use there's no fees no set up all that stuff
2464 - and and gamers are using it and they love it and they they have it and it works and
2469 - it scales a million times better than bitcoin cash and it's at best time even if you did
2474 - have a phone that was 20 years more than today's phones you don't need that for lightning you can do
2478 - it on today's phones with today's tech in a way that actually and you don't yeah i mean i agree with you gaming is a
2487 - is a great uh you know part of the puzzle and just give you
2491 - some unreleased information bitcoin cash has developed a gaming ecosystem that is going to be implemented with a
2499 - couple of big publishers where gamers can trade the loot that they earn inside the games
2504 - and they can use qr codes or links to exchange these items and of course we also see
2511 - gaming as a major part to bring more and more people to crypto the thing is like why
2519 - the toxicity why does it have to be a battle to the death why can't we see you know who is
2528 - doing better and why can't we be friendly competitors instead of you know fighting each other well for
2534 - example if you look at uh somebody also they're just being very very practical
2541 - very very practical i i for instance i will i believe just technically if bitcoin cash were to be
2547 - the solution you would still need a lightning network on it in other words
2551 - the bigger block size does not accomplish the streaming micropayments that we get that i think are going to be
2556 - the key to mass adoption i think the world is about to get streaming money
2561 - and i think it's going to start with bitcoin lightning and i think when gen z gets a taste of it it's gonna
2567 - change commerce forever and i and that's not five years away i think it's gonna start this year even
2573 - and i'm just saying candidate for it i'm just intensely practical if you have another solution
2580 - i'd love to hear it i just see technical issues kim can i ask you a question please
2587 - thanks so much uh thanks for being here uh my name is jason and i do used to be a regulator during
2593 - the financial crisis and i talk to a lot of congressmen and senators and i do a lot of bitcoin
2598 - lobbying activities um in terms of like the idea that the government might
2604 - ban bitcoin i honestly haven't heard those conversations in fact i've actually heard congressmen and senators
2610 - talk about the freedom that bitcoin gives people that no one can tell you we're not going to lend to
2616 - you anymore you know there's it it's it's very much something that i've seen
2621 - congressmen and senators adopt even the laser eyes one senator did it cynthia lomas
2626 - of wyoming and also warren davidson of ohio so one thing that happened to me once
2632 - and i won't name who the congressman was but i was with somebody who's very large in the bitcoin ecosystem and we were
2638 - talking to somebody in congress and the person politely said
2643 - i want you to give me the president of bitcoin because i want to shut this network down
2647 - get me the president of bitcoin on the phone and i'll tell you kim it was with pride that i said i can't
2653 - tell you who the president of bitcoin is because it is a decentralized society it's a decentralized network
2661 - i can't just call up somebody who's gonna tell you how you can control bitcoin but with bitcoin cash that's a
2668 - whole other subject you know it very well and i think you honestly should be a little ashamed to
2673 - yourself that you're up here telling everybody that somehow bitcoin cash can even come
2677 - close to being a competitor to bitcoin because that's a network that has had a 51
2682 - attack and i'd like to yeah i i you know you you went really well
2692 - until you said i should be ashamed you know i i just don't understand how you could say that i believe that
2700 - what i'm doing is okay you know i'm i have a different view to your view
2705 - and i'm not doing anything that i should be ashamed about you know quite the opposite i uh apply a
2712 - different strategy to see crypto succeed long term you have your strategy
2718 - and you've been doing really well with it and i have no problem with it at all if it is bitcoin in the end that is
2724 - going to you know dominate and lead us into this crypto revolution future fantastic
2730 - i would absolutely love it but i don't agree with everything that bitcoin has done
2735 - because i know the us government better than most people i understand the power struggles you
2741 - know i've been a big supporter of wikileaks early on that's also one of the reasons
2746 - why the case against me was even initiated because i was a major donor you know
2750 - i've been in the cyberpunk movement from the beginning so i just have a different view because
2756 - of my own experience and the the knowledge that i've gained over the years
2761 - about the move of the us government against crypto it's going to come and it's going to be worse than most
2769 - people imagine and i just want to have done the best i can
2774 - with the knowledge that i have to try and prevent them from succeeding and if that means
2779 - that there are 10 different cryptocurrencies all competing with bitcoin in the end
2784 - you know for the lion market share if that achieves that crypto is going to survive and the
2791 - crypto revolution is going to continue well then i feel like i've done a good job so you know just please don't say
2798 - things like i should be ashamed just because i have a different view you know for a quick two kim and say
2805 - yeah guys if listen we can have the conversation
2808 - and and this is a this is the like honestly is my biggest thing now like this is what i'm
2814 - all about i think that for a very long time i've been perfectly okay and perfectly
2819 - fine with having these walls up labeling everyone that's not a bitcoin or a scammer
2824 - because i think it was important for bitcoin to go through some so a certain phase right where we needed
2828 - to defend ourselves and and we really need to root out all of anyone that could be a threat but
2833 - i think that we're entering a new phase now and i think we need to start having
2836 - these conversations again i've i've had this conversation with jimmy and we just he just disagrees with me
2842 - that's all he doesn't think kim should have a place to speak and maybe he's right but i think in my
2846 - opinion it's time to at least give it a chance like lower the [ __ ] shield a little bit put the
2851 - lower the armor just a little bit and have the conversation and i think we need to have the conversation
2856 - without without calling each other names like it's so easy to to drop to that level and jason i can i
2862 - get why you know you feel that way towards kim but i but i think it's so important
2866 - if we're going to have these conversations to not to not use name calling we don't need to stoop to
2871 - that level it's not necessary anymore um and i think we can have a great dialogue but
2876 - um kid you can finish your point and then i want to see if jc or brad want to jump in here or shannon
2882 - yeah i appreciate i appreciate really what you just said because like i said i'm really your friend i'm
2888 - not your enemy i have a different approach to thinking how to make sure
2892 - that we can can transition into this global crypto revolution you know i think utilization is the key
2899 - i don't agree with everything that is going on on the bitcoin side and i think it's not bad to have not all
2905 - x in one basket i think it's okay if there are competing views competing blockchains with different ideas
2912 - whatever succeeds in the end if it brings us to this common goal
2917 - that crypto is the future and fiat will be gone and with it all the corruption the wars the illegality
2926 - you know the the way governments are running things today you know if we can see that all change
2932 - because crypto succeeds then you know we've all won and i think we have that shared goal
2938 - and because we have that check where there's no reason for us to hate each other or call each other
2944 - names you know i would really like to have okay let's let's move past it though let's
2948 - move past it though we we agree we agree on that so let's move faster i mean we don't
2952 - need that so i don't i don't have any will towards kim and some people probably think i
2957 - should you know i but but but aside from that i do
2961 - think that uh there is kind of a reason like when we look at like for example nba talk shops
2966 - uh it's a nft thing they're selling crypto cards on like the wax block chain i think i'm not
2972 - sure maybe it's flow i don't remember which one but like no no big pointers are coming
2976 - out and saying like oh uh laughs is a like a scam or whatever i mean like sure they might say like
2982 - you know entities generally are a bad investment in that sense of scam but they don't
2985 - like you know crucify people for supporting uh nba uh top shops and they and yet when it
2991 - comes to bitcoin cash it's different and why what's the difference between nba top
2995 - shops and bitcoin cash i think the difference is definitely in in the marketing and the narratives when
3002 - you have for example bitcoin.com the domain saying it's the real bitcoin
3006 - telling people listing original vision uh all of these other things trying to you know when you click on buy
3012 - bitcoin on the website it takes you to buy bitcoin cash there's a lot of 90 people that don't
3016 - know a lot about bitcoin they want to buy bitcoin and these groups they leverage that and
3020 - you know and you can't deny him that roger ver spends he's almost every day on twitter
3026 - talking [ __ ] about bitcoin every day that's his phone twitter feed is like anti-bitcoin twitter feed so if nba top
3033 - shots was every day talking [ __ ] about bitcoin then yes people would consider anybody
3038 - who was supporting that to be in bad faith and that's a big difference yeah so right now i'm here i'm not roger
3046 - there and i'm not talking [ __ ] about bitcoin okay let's just all agree on that uh we
3051 - have different points of views i actually really love bitcoin and i love the whole bitcoin community so let me
3056 - just be absolutely clear about that i can see why the name and the domain bitcoin.com
3062 - create allergic reactions i had the same thing i tell you quite frankly in the beginning
3067 - when i had my early discussions with roger and other bch wales uh and we were discussing about me
3073 - taking a role and and you know getting involved i even suggested why don't we change the
3078 - [ ] name like we don't need any of this toxic [ ] uh and in the end i just thought it doesn't make
3085 - a a major difference now you know the brand is already recognized i think it's okay because bitcoin cash
3092 - shares 99 of the dna of bitcoin you know i just didn't in the beginning i had a similar
3099 - reaction to you and i thought it isn't necessary hold on a second one second john who
3105 - john could you uh control and wrong can you mod me if you don't
3111 - dennis i could help out in about three minutes but if you remind me stacey can you keep can you keep things
3116 - calm for a second i'll be right back yeah so yeah so jason brought up a point you guys have talked about a little bit
3130 - and i may have missed a deeper discussion earlier on and that had to do with the fact that uh
3134 - like kim you mentioned that you think the governments are going to come after cryptocurrency at some point
3139 - because it you know when they live in the dollar or whatever currency they're using loses its power
3144 - that's how they control the people it's going to lose their power they have less control over the people
3148 - and they come after it when they come after it there's an important piece that we've kind of danced around and not
3153 - directly spoke about and that jason brought that up is that there are figureheads for bitcoin cash that can be
3159 - directly attacked if multiple governments decide to go after currencies they can
3163 - go after those figureheads and that the one they take down those figureheads like right now there's no one to oppose
3168 - those figureheads and changing the blockchain then changing bitcoin cash into something else and allowing
3174 - them to have more control and because of its you know centralized nature whereas
3178 - if you were to go after bitcoin like what's the attack vector go after the miners they're spread out all over the
3183 - world go after the node holders they're spread out all over the world where bitcoin cash does have a very
3188 - centralized ecosystem there's very centralized control in that aspect
3194 - and it creates this one central point of attack i think that's going to be an important
3198 - thing to pay attention to if you're worried about the world governments coming after
3202 - you know crypto yeah i do disagree on that point that you think it's very centralized right
3211 - it's it's actually not i have a lot of struggles having to talk with a lot of people
3216 - to get consensus about some of the things that we want to do and that i would like to change
3221 - so it's absolutely not like i can just pick up the phone call one or two guys and get it all done right that's a
3226 - misconception and that's not correct um i've said earlier
3232 - uh you know this this point about decentralization have been brought up again and again
3236 - if anyone understands decentralization it's me you know i've been in this industry for a long time
3241 - you may know that one of the most successful encryption websites is mega dot nz
3247 - it's up and running with over 300 million users so i know what i'm doing of course i'm
3252 - having these conversations with everyone at bch to improve the status quo
3259 - i don't like it the way it is right now i would like to see uh even more decentralization i would
3267 - like to see improvements uh and especially i want to see more developers and i don't know if
3272 - you guys have seen a new side chain that is coming out for bch called
3278 - smart bch and that's being released in may and that is going to bring a lot of new developers
3285 - to this ecosystem and with it you know hopefully also um you know more miners and more
3292 - transactions and eventually the hash rate of bch is going to increase and it's going to help
3298 - with the decentralization and all the other things so i do agree with you it's not perfect the way it is right now
3306 - but that's why i got involved and i said look what can i do to make sure that it becomes perfect
3312 - and maybe on some fronts we can even improve what others are doing so that's really
3318 - what i'm known for and what my strength is i'm an innovator i think about solving problems
3323 - and many of the problems that you are mentioning are of course on my mind as well and thank you by the way
3331 - for mega i think there are lots of people who have used mega and appreciate that contribution to
3336 - everybody who uses it you mentioned the hash rate there for a second if you see what's behind me in my picture i uh deal
3342 - with bitcoin mining a little bit and right now like you know bitcoin cash's hash rate is 10 times
3348 - less than bitcoin like 100 times yeah 100 times less than bitcoin like
3355 - what would they do if all of a sudden like the bitcoiners just the miners just decided we're sick of this
3360 - we're going to waste a few hours of electricity in in the bitcoin cash like that could happen
3368 - yeah well the good thing is that there are a couple of really big miners that are very friendly to bch and they
3374 - would come to the rescue they have done that before these attempts were made before and
3379 - uh so with that hash power that we can instantly activate when we need it there is not really a risk of that kind
3386 - of attack being successful oh there definitely is i this is i don't understand kim
3391 - i mean like this is like the weird i can assure you that what i'm telling you is the truth
3396 - my knowledge and john gentlemen i think it's time we shut this room down it's gone on this was supposed
3402 - to be an ethereum topic uh we can continue this in another room that's more than okay
3407 - um but you know this is the point of cafe bitcoin is not to go into the ins and outs of bitcoin cash
3414 - all right let's do that uh can you want to join all right guys i appreciate the the conversation that we had and i wish
3421 - you all the best and uh you know that i'm not against it it was great thank you so much
3427 - we're we're all fighting guys we'll see we'll see what the solution is as time goes by so thank you i apologize
3435 - out of line when i said that i just was hey no no problem it's all good we're all here with the
3441 - same common goal and i appreciate you all and have a good day take care everybody thanks for joining
Wow, so nice and creativity mind.thumbs up to you,