BCH Network discussion July 1st 22

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_1 seems i'm talking to myself i have a speaker icon so maybe it's okay

_36 so imaginary can you say something my track mic check thank you can you can

_68 you hear me okay thank you we are waiting for a few more people to sign in before we

_94 get started might check closer me we are still waiting for jason and colin

_188 we're having a bit of a technical problem with one of our guests who's

_192 melting down it's more like a it's more like a philosophical problem

_200 yeah for future reference we should probably tell all all guests

_206 again that they have to be on on mobile to do this

_217 yeah sorry i see jason's in the chat now i'll make him speaker as well

_231 okay jason i sent you an invite once you accept it you should be able to

_235 speak calen may may be a little bit slow but we'll we'll wait for him to to

_249 join us before we let's let's just go again if you wish hey jason hey y'all can you hear me

_259 yes yeah awesome yeah sorry all right i forget that

_269 some people have have not used spaces before so they maybe are not aware

_273 about the the phone issue which seems like everyone has their first time

_281 so yeah callan will be joining us in a moment until he gets that sorted

_290 i'll just go through the intro and stuff so let's begin

_297 hello everyone welcome to the july 1st 222 bitcoin cash network discussion

_304 today's topic is cash tokens token primitives for a bitcoin cash

_310 today's guests are jason dreissner callum cooliano imagine your username

_316 john neary and i am your host chief lightning a special note before we begin

_324 as you are all aware there is currently an issue with the smart bch

_329 bridge to maintain i understand that it is a hot topic and

_334 on everyone's mind at the moment however this is a focused discussion about

_338 cash tokens and token primitives to that end

_343 during the discussion i will only be allowing questions pertaining to this

_346 topic at the end of the discussion we'll open up questions to all topics but please

_351 keep that in mind also if anyone is listening and would

_355 like to submit a question via text and not actually speaking please

_361 feel free to do so via the bitcoin cash network discussions

_365 telegram group and i will be monitoring and will ask questions to the panel

_374 from there now that that is out of the way i am very pleased to have with us today jason dreissner

_382 the author of chip2222 if anyone out there is unfamiliar with

_390 the chip process please check out previous discussions we had about chip

_394 itself on youtube jason welcome hi everyone how's it going

_401 excellent before we dive into the details and the

_407 nitty-gritty could you please dumb it down for me specifically and give us

_412 a kind of eli5 version of what cache tokens and token primitives are

_420 yeah so there are a lot of use cases in contracts that require a contract to be able to

_431 attest to something or make a commitment to some some data

_439 that other contracts need to be able to need to be able to read

_446 and that's kind of what all of this is about so we we can describe we can

_451 describe tokens in in the contract system as being commitments and there

_456 are two different kinds of them there is the more general kind which can be

_462 just an arbitrary string of bytes and that is a non-fungible token in

_470 in more common terms and then there is also a specialization of that where

_475 you're committing to a number only and that's like an abstract concept like

_480 you the the contract may be maybe considering that number to be a ticket

_485 or a share of stock or part of of equity in debt or something

_493 like that and that number is a specialization of the more general

_500 category and that is a fungible token so having these having these building

_506 blocks that's primitive is the word that that would be commonly used for you

_511 know building block in in the virtual machine having these these primitives may

_518 makes it possible for us to build much more complicated interesting

_524 smart contracts where the contracts can also work together to accomplish a a shared

_532 goal so instead of packing all of your code into one into one one script

_540 and and make it creating the address from that you can create a set a little

_546 ecosystem of scripts that all work together and and

_551 accomplish some some larger goal but without without massive transactions and

_556 everybody everybody hitting the same contract and i probably later we'll talk a

_562 little bit about the decentralized exchange design that i that i shared yesterday

_569 that one actually uses i think it's eight contracts and 15 code pass or something but by

_577 by splitting things up we actually get a much more a much more succinct contract in each

_584 case and so transactions are actually are much very reasonable compared to if

_588 you are you were sticking the whole code in each in each address to to do everything that the

_596 contract needs to do so okay yeah and then of course i

_601 i had a computer science degree and i felt like

_606 this was explain it like i'm a fifth year of computer science

_613 i was gonna say something so in my notes i wrote super basic so

_620 please think think of think of the children please please help me yeah i'm five years

_629 old [Laughter] like cardano you know but better because

_647 it's bitcoin cash [Laughter] we'll have to try again

_651 like basically slp you know like except it'll be minor validated and

_655 they're awesome right so the the tokens in general

_661 for what what you most users will see out of this is first it makes a lot of

_666 interesting contracts very very efficient to write

_671 and then and so transaction sizes are very small and then then in general

_677 from the user interface perspective tokens will be supported in your wallet

_681 they'll look there will be non-fungible tokens which

_687 cannot be yeah sorry i didn't discuss it non-fungible tokens are tokens where

_693 each unit is not fungible with any other unit of the token so if you have

_698 two fungible tokens they don't they don't mix together and then the

_703 you can't you can't merge them and and fungible tokens you can and they work

_713 just like bitcoin cash but you can have a a an amount

_718 of a fungible token that might represent something like shares or tickets or

_723 stock or credit debt equity whatever hey imagine your username i heard you're

_730 really good at explaining stuff so so i just want to

_740 tell people about a bit of history of this proposal so people might re people might

_749 have realized that bitcoin cash gained this significant significant

_754 smart significantly more smart contract ability not not today not last year but all the way

_761 back but all the way back in 218 when we some would say unintentionally gain the

_769 power of covenants and that was when people started to get

_774 more powerful versions of the [Music] control over backs of just bch coins

_784 they were able to do very fancy things like you know

_788 do schedule payments on-chain trustless and also delayed vaults and also a

_797 basically a part of bch that were able to perpetuate itself

_809 through some sort of condition that you said to them so that was improved

_813 dramatically over over the years and led to any hedge and and so on and other

_820 and other cool things but so one thing that the cash token does is to

_827 greatly empower this again there is a reason the title was called cash token

_832 primitives instead of just oh we got token now so aside from

_838 so this realization was happened like a few months ago

_844 and let which led to a convergence of several different proposals

_852 so instead of just so we call it like fundable tokens and nfts but they are

_860 much much more powerful than what people usually think of oh it's just nfts

_866 it's funny jpegs and it's just fungible tokens people do

_871 something and then they pump it and they don't know it's a lot more powerful than

_875 that because between these different parts of pch you were they were now able to communicate

_882 and you are now able to delicate this access and control

_889 much much more easily so instead of say you know you have a mult you have a

_896 multisig and then each person each private key will control a share of

_904 the will share a control to that part of money instead

_908 you can let several contracts share control to it or you can even have the tokens pass

_917 around some other way and perhaps you can even carry information

_922 while doing so so it is it is a very it is a very very powerful powerful

_929 thing that goes way beyond what people normally think as

_933 tokens that's what i want to convey yeah okay so seeing as out of all of you guys i'm

_941 i'm the most smooth brain so my brain smoothness but yes

_949 so to try to summarize in a very succinct way it will become possible for

_959 two different tokens to talk to each other is that really basic two different contracts to talk to each

_969 other two different contracts to talk to each other yep exactly

_973 okay yeah that's that's the key thing and nfts nfts allow two different

_977 contact contracts to talk to each other and totally fundable tokens the

_982 tokens that allow you to to mix and merge and split them they will allow

_988 contracts to share balance information with each other which is much more specific but much

_995 more useful so you can do things like like shareholder votes and and

_1000 representing other other currencies on chain or or whatever and i think i want to add a little bit

_1009 of a simplification but all of these what people think of

_1015 commonly when they think of as tokens is one thing and they have a very clear

_1019 image of what that means and like you name pointed out

_1024 these are specifically primitive so they're kind of hard to explain because

_1028 they're quite low level you know kind of gears and widgets inside the bitcoin cash

_1037 consensus but what they're gonna let us do is take money these these this token system is

_1046 much more focused on activating the things that you can do

_1051 with money and making those accessible to people so what you can do with money right now

_1058 like with bitcoin cash is you can send and you can receive and you can make

_1062 some very basic contracts actually you can make some

_1065 quite complex contracts but there's serious limitations on it and

_1071 this more or less unlocks any kind of idea where you want to take

_1076 money and take assets and make them trustless and make them

_1082 operate trustlessly and permissionlessly this kind of opens it up to where you

_1086 can do kind of whatever you want whatever you can think of you can you

_1090 can do with these if you're a developer or an app

_1096 developer or an entrepreneur who wants to build a system who wants to build a

_1099 ticketing system or a voting or a company shares system or whatever it

_1105 is that you want to build this unlocks all of those kind of

_1108 possibilities which utxo chains like bitcoin cash which are extremely

_1117 highly scalable right that's the huge benefit of these chains

_1122 it opens up all of that kind of programmable power that people imagine

_1128 with with things like ethereum but it puts those on the utxo chain makes them extremely

_1135 scalable and makes therefore right they're available to everybody like that

_1139 there's not a high cost to these things they're very cheap if you read

_1143 jason's thread where he explains some of the things you can do with cash tokens

_1147 you know you set up a company you set up shares you make a market for your shares

_1154 for you know a transaction that costs less than one u.s cent so it brings all

_1162 the the money on bitcoin cash and it kind of wraps it up in all this

_1168 power and gives you all this power to to do whatever it is that you imagine

_1173 with it for a very accessible price that anyone in the world will hopefully be able to

_1178 to afford and participate in thank you for that explanation so it

_1185 sounds to me like this will unlock the potential of

_1192 money in in ways that you would normally need a plethora of outside services to access

_1200 it'll all just be possible simply and cheaply

_1206 on on chain is that is that basically correct yeah definitely

_1214 awesome so in in various people's explanations there i i heard fungible and

_1221 non-fungible tokens thrown around quite a bit when people think about

_1227 non-fungible tokens of course they think about you know cryptokitties or or your

_1232 your nfp of of the moment but if my understanding is correct nfts didn't

_1239 start out as jpegs is could somebody explain the

_1245 difference between yeah what what the fungible and nonprofit i just want to

_1250 point out we could do that too if you want like we can do cryptokitties now

_1253 with this thing but we just want to point that out yeah

_1255 that will be possible here that what is maybe maybe a little more

_1260 interesting about what we call non-fungible tokens in the bitcoin cash

_1264 system is that they they're they're much more likely to

_1272 for a lot of applications represent things like an order receipt

_1277 so that you could place an order for example in the

_1280 decentralized exchange application you can place an order

_1284 and the receipt you get when you place an order is what you give the exchange

_1289 back later to get the tokens you bought or or the money from the tokens you sold

_1295 so it's a it's a way for the the decentralized exchange to find you later

_1303 for you to be able to re-authenticate and and get what you're

_1307 owed after participating in the exchange because right it's a decentralized

_1311 exchange you don't have an account it doesn't have any way of knowing who you

_1314 are and it's not necessarily safe for it to just randomly throw money back at you

_1318 it would be better if you if your wallet goes back and and asks

_1323 for the money in whatever address you choose and then you can you can have even

_1329 long-running activities that happen on contracts

_1332 where if you have a decentralized exchange that that is running like a

_1336 two-month auction well now if you if you move wallets

_1341 if you switch wallets if you gave that exchange like your your your address

_1347 if you need to switch wallets then now two months later if the exchange is

_1351 gonna send you the money it's gonna send it to an address that you're you no

_1354 longer manage you no longer really keep track of so it's much better if you

_1359 can just move that receipt right to a new wallet and then two months later whenever the

_1364 contract is is up your wallet can can go show your receipt and get what you're

_1370 owed so there's that's an example of a an item that

_1375 it doesn't even make sense to to think of there as being like some

_1380 amount of a of that particular receipt there's just one unit of it and it

_1387 it is not interchangeable with any other receipt they're all very different

_1392 and they might they might even have different instructions on them so you

_1395 know one person bought 50 tokens and one person sold 10 and they're those two

_1400 you can't like put those receipts together in most cases and and have

_1405 them come out with some with some balance but if you're for example

_1411 represent if you're using tokens to represent some some concept like

_1416 like shares of stock then it makes sense two different people issued batches

_1422 of stock if i i'm issued 50 shares and somebody else has issued a hundred

_1425 shares we can you know that person can sell me 25 of their shares and and

_1430 actually send me those shares and then we both have 75 and and that

_1436 the the shares they gave me are just as good as the ones that i had they are

_1440 exactly they are exactly interchangeable then that's that's the the concept of

_1446 fungible as if they're exactly interchangeable um but yeah so that either of us either us

_1453 can take those shares and and use them to to vote in a shareholder

_1460 shareholder election or a shareholder vote or those shares may entitle us

_1466 to dividends and there's ways to pay out dividends to shareholders yeah

_1472 there's a lot of there's a lot of cool contract abilities we get with this

_1476 stuff so i just want to add that in many of this context it is it might be more

_1483 helpful to think of tokens in the computer science sense where a piece of

_1488 information is carried around and gives you access and whatnot instead of you

_1493 know casino tokens where it's just being used to straight up represents

_1499 something it represents something else of value yeah exactly

_1506 we're almost it's almost a disservice if you're trying to think of the way

_1510 that these non-functional tokens work if you're trying to like match them up with

_1514 how nft is used in the in like popular culture crypto culture

_1522 you won't you won't see the most important use cases

_1527 yes possibly some of the things that nfts are currently kind of famous for

_1531 will be will be possible and and could be useful but i i expect

_1538 things like order receipts and refunds and you know vote contents and things like that i

_1546 expect will be much more much more interesting in the in the

_1551 very long term applications when we have you know significant decentralized

_1555 exchanges and prediction markets and things like that all happening on shane

_1560 can i add something to this so what you're saying so so basically right now money the money we

_1566 have on chain is is basically only has like two two or three different

_1571 properties it goes with like the value of the like when you get sent some money right

_1575 you get sent like what's internally called like a coin or

_1579 a utxo right and it just has like an amount that's it pretty much

_1585 and and maybe it has a hash of the previous transaction so there's like two

_1588 pieces of data that goes with your money so now we can add more data to your

_1593 money so then that just means that we can add more state to what can happen on

_1597 chain that's like sort of the the summary of it i mean it unlocks just

_1601 having more state and any kind of computer science and context just

_1605 unlocks possibilities like you know like ethereum has a different

_1609 approach to this they have like state variables that go with your account or

_1612 whatever and this will be state variables that can go with your money

_1616 directly with your utxos but and it just unlocks possibilities i don't know if that helps

_1622 oh yes that helps i'm interested in in how this would be

_1626 applied to the real world so the first thing that popped into my head

_1631 when jason's talking about receipts would be like

_1634 coupons so you have a coupon that you receive as a gift for making

_1641 some purchase and because it is an nft that means that you could send it to a

_1650 different wallet of your own but you could also sell it on some kind of

_1654 aftermarket is that an example of something that would be

_1658 possible exactly and depending on exactly what the coupon represents

_1665 you may that it may be an nfc or it might actually be a fungal token you

_1670 you could you could have if the coupon has some sort of balance and that's all

_1674 it is like if if the coupon entitles you to two 50 50 rides at the fair

_1682 you can send 20 of those to somebody else and that's perfectly reasonable

_1686 then that's what a fungible token would be for and if the the coupon

_1692 instead entitles you to some to some you know particular behavior

_1697 of a a smart contract or whatever so maybe a good example actually is the

_1705 decentralized exchange has a liquidity provider it's somebody

_1709 who puts money in and that that money is is used to be the other side of the

_1715 trade so like if you want to buy 50 tokens but nobody else wants to sell you tokens

_1720 at this particular moment the liquidity provider will step in and say like and

_1724 say i i'll be the seller and i have i have all these tokens and all this money

_1728 and i match it up with with with what people want

_1733 the liquidity provider gets a little bit of a fee from providing that service

_1738 so the liquidity provider actually with the the decentralized exchange design i

_1744 posted yesterday the liquidity provider is represented with a non-fungible token so

_1751 the ownership in a sense of the liquidity provider can be can be transferred between wallets

_1759 very simply it's it's just a non-fungible token it doesn't have a balance of any sort it

_1767 doesn't represent a number you can't split the ownership into two in that

_1772 part you move it you move it atomically between between wallets and

_1778 then you use that token to identify yourself to the exchange to withdraw

_1782 your fees to withdraw the money you made for being a liquidity provider

_1786 and and that gives you really great you do it to the contract yeah right

_1792 that's something your your wallet would be able to do and then from there because

_1799 what what it really means is that that is the point where we can where we can build a different

_1807 contracts that work together efficiently so the the exchange is

_1812 actually designed such that the liquidity provider is represented by an

_1816 nft but what that means is that you could give that nft to a different

_1821 contract to a different smart contract where that that different smart contract

_1826 does all of the interaction with the exchange itself

_1831 and that smart contract issues shares so that you can have

_1836 thousands of people who are part of the liquidity provider but the the the

_1841 primary exchange contract doesn't need to know anything about how those

_1845 shareholders have arranged to their affairs and so it makes it where we can break

_1850 down these these very complex designs into much more

_1854 easy to understand atomic pieces where and you can you can deploy them one at a

_1860 time or separately and there there could be there could be a dozen different

_1864 smart contracts that are that are popularly used to interact with this

_1869 decentralized exchange's design all the decentralized exchange cares

_1873 about is that there is a liquidity provider and it can identify them

_1878 so you can give that liquidity provider non-fungible token to any of these

_1884 these more interesting designs and and you could have

_1887 it what that'll amount to is there'll probably be some liquidity provider management

_1894 contract designs where they issue shares there will probably be some

_1899 designs where they are [Music] you know interesting multi-signature

_1906 constructions where they they fall back after 30 days just some other

_1911 behavior or some yeah there are a number of there are a number of

_1919 organizational structures you can build to control that liquidity provider

_1925 nft but because we because we represent the idea of being a liquidity provider with

_1933 that nft that's a clean break where you can add your own your own code

_1940 to the to the specific functioning of how of how the exchange works when you

_1947 when you deployed it does that make sense today

_1952 this is all on chain right like this is not yes yes contract logic on chain like like the

_1958 way theorem works right right the and in our case it's by using these tokens allows us to get

_1969 much more succinct contract designs because in a lot of cases

_1978 on some of the account based chains contracts end up being

_1982 these giant blobs of code that you that you push up to the chair you upload

_1988 to the chain sort of and it costs a ton of money to to put the contract on

_1993 the chain so that's a that's a big a big disruption for developers and

_2000 then everybody executes functions on that contract in our case

_2007 each of the the functions that people execute end up being their own tiny

_2013 contract that is just vanishingly cheap to to put on chain

_2018 and we don't even have a concept of of uploading contracts instead every

_2023 time your wallet makes a transaction it uploads a new set of contracts so

_2028 uploading contracts in in bitcoin cash is of course so cheap that that

_2034 most people don't realize it has a price and the cost of the transaction itself the

_2041 whole transaction is still less than a a a fraction of a penny of a u.s cent

_2049 so much what we get out of having this these these tokens is contracts that are

_2058 we get the same the same power you you can you can get in these account based

_2063 systems developers can can build contracts and decentralized applications

_2069 that are that are just as powerful as with the these account based chains that's

_2074 ethereum and things that are based on the evm and there's a few others like

_2078 that developers can get that same kind of power except we we do not

_2087 we don't forfeit bitcoin cash's superior scalability and and lower fees

_2092 there hey i want to bring up a specific point there but first i just want to give a

_2098 quick answer to i've had several people ask the question of slp tokens what's

_2103 different and i just wanted to give a quick answer to that the the key

_2107 difference here is that slp tokens can't participate as a first kind of

_2116 fully participating entities in in smart contracts so they aren't able to be validated by minors there's a bunch

_2125 of things that limit them in smart contracts so they won't actually be able to do very much

_2133 due to the way that they are due to the way that they work so slp

_2140 tokens actually it to think of it more slp tokens

_2147 the current slp tokens can't be seen by contracts they can't they have no way

_2152 of telling that they're looking at an slp token and that's where they they

_2157 become much less useful for for contract applications but we should all

_2161 guarantee you leave it even if you can see it there's no guarantee it's valid

_2164 right any contract you don't look at a whole bag it's just it's just noise on the chain

_2169 really i mean it could be it could be created by anybody it could be invalid

_2173 yep but we should also distinguish that that's for slp 1.0 sop

_2179 1.0 is the version specified and there's a very good chance that

_2183 we will have a slp 2.0 that uses this stuff under the hood and so from an

_2189 slp if you're using slp tokens from that perspective um there's definitely a there's definitely

_2198 a migration path that that should be pretty reasonable and we may end up

_2204 still calling a a token standard that is more full maybe i should describe

_2210 so the cash tokens chip and the stuff we're talking about is very very low

_2215 level and slp also provides it is a is a is a somewhat higher level

_2223 standard that describes things like best practices and has specific software

_2228 implementations and and basically you know procedures for what what should be

_2232 what should be done when you're issuing a new token

_2236 things like that we are not attempting to standardize with this

_2240 with this cash tokens chip we're just the gas tokens chip is the

_2245 is the bare minimum to get tokens in the consensus layer for bitcoin cash

_2251 and other standards like slp would be great to to standardize

_2258 very industry specific things like how how do we actually issue stock on chain

_2263 if you're a company and what you know what's the procedure what what

_2269 kind of basic usage of the underlying tokens should happen what happens if

_2275 the company issues more shares what happens if the company needs to

_2279 transition to a different internal identifier on the chain there's

_2284 lots of things that that are kind of edge cases that are very industry

_2289 specific which need to be need to be thought about for that industry

_2293 tickets are another great example where it would it would be certainly

_2298 beneficial for us to have a a standard for how to issue tickets

_2304 and and when i i mean you know not just general admission

_2308 kind of tickets but like you know there are vip passes and backstage

_2319 thank you for anyone else or was it just can you hear me sorry there you go

_2324 he broke up for me too am i back in

_2330 yeah i can do it right so a standard that that

_2335 helps well just a standard for how tickets should be issued on chain so that all of

_2342 the wallets in the bitcoin cash space can simply support the ticket standard

_2346 or you know there will be a couple maybe a couple ticket standards possibly

_2350 hopefully we can we can there will be one that will be the obvious one and

_2354 we can kind of consolidate on it on a a good way to to handle that and then

_2359 various wallets can support holding tickets in your wallet or or

_2366 trading them on exchanges that are designed decentralize these changes

_2370 like the one posted yesterday that are designed for

_2375 for making it easy to buy and sell those tickets on on just straight in your

_2380 wallet yeah there are a number of things that are that are very

_2384 application specific there that it would be way way beyond the scope of the cash

_2389 tokens chip to try to specify but standards like slp

_2396 we may end up with an slp ticket standard is what i mean to say

_2401 so if you're looking if you you're looking back at this conversation from a

_2406 year from now and you're like i'm using slp tokens still

_2409 that's because hopefully we have figured out how to

_2414 upgrade them to to support some of this contract ability thank you that's a much better

_2422 explanation than i gave so good i wanna go all the way back

_2427 though to the the maybe i think very important point you

_2433 were talking about scaling and um how these tokens you know take advantage

_2439 of utxo and it's very scalable but on the flip side right i have

_2444 heard concern where people say look they don't put it in these terms but

_2450 look send and receive is good enough right for money

_2454 and this is a kind of perspective with these tokens that look

_2459 you need a whole economy you need all kinds of contracts and agreements and ways of

_2466 interacting with money for it to be really useful and to create an actual

_2470 economy at least that's how i see it but could you speak to

_2476 the idea that you know what's the risk of this destroying the scalability of

_2480 bitcoin cash or of this you know taking up all the all the all

_2485 the block space in trivial things that aren't very

_2489 important and that it harms the the use case of of bitcoin cash

_2495 as money could could you kind of speak to that like whether this affects that or not

_2500 yeah that's a good question and it's definitely important to

_2503 answer the in general scalability wise bitcoin cash is is very well designed for scalability

_2515 and this is a this tote this strategy of implementing tokens is a very natural

_2529 fit for how bitcoin cash scales so that technically if we're just talking about

_2534 purely technically tokens are going to look like just an almost a new kind of

_2542 address they are they have about the same impact as the fact that people can use pay to

_2550 script hash for example so you can you can send money to the hash of a contract

_2555 and that allows you to have addresses that work a little

_2560 differently but that's that's how we got more advanced multi-sig wallets and

_2565 and better security wallets so in in that sense scaling wise and purely

_2572 technically um this this looks a little bit like a new kind of address as for the kind of

_2579 the the bigger question of why do we need anything but send and

_2584 receive um there are a lot of a lot of complex interactions economic interactions out

_2591 there that are not send and receive and they use things other than just the base

_2596 currency um we've talked about a lot here where you know stock equity tickets

_2602 things like that late loyalty points gif includes store stored credit

_2610 gift cards things like that there are a lot of use cases that

_2617 cannot be in let's say in the traditional world the use case

_2626 of a in traditional finance many of these these use cases stock tickets et cetera are

_2639 are enforced by a number of of various institutions that

_2645 we cannot use to enforce activity on the on the chain that's probably a little

_2655 more complicated but yeah we um if we want to have a if we want to have

_2667 a money that is not centrally controlled if you you know a court can't a court

_2673 can't demand that the chain take some money from one address and

_2677 move it to another address we don't have a way of even coming to a consensus on

_2682 on what the court is on chain there's no way for us to there's no way for us to

_2687 be like okay well that's a legitimate request anyone could could pretend to

_2691 be a court and just ask the chain to do it and and now the chain has to figure

_2695 out what is what is a legitimate authority and what is not and and people

_2700 individual humans would disagree about that so it's much more unreasonable to try

_2704 to think we could do that with with purely technical solutions but this

_2708 allows us instead of relying on these kind of valuable human institutions to

_2713 go ahead and set the rules properly as a contract that the

_2718 chain already understands and instead of having

_2725 a long expensive complicated process for enforcing how how this exchange

_2732 should work i mean let's let's take the the very concrete example of the

_2735 exchange from yesterday where we talked about the

_2738 decentralized exchange gedx is the name um that is a a set of fixed contracts that

_2747 specify exactly how a a fully functional market works for a

_2754 token so you can when you go to to be if you're going to be an event an

_2758 organizer for an event you can create create your your tickets for your event

_2765 and you can at the same time also putting put up a a marketplace for them

_2770 so that your attendees can can sell their tickets if they realize

_2774 they can't go and other people can buy them easily and it can show up in your

_2777 wallet if your if your wallet supports this ticket standard you know lots of

_2782 lots of useful user features there but the exchange

_2788 is all is all written in code on shame so um there is there's no way

_2798 it's actually impossible for you to for you to defraud the exchange or

_2803 for the exchange to run away with your tickets or your money the exchange

_2808 literally cannot take your money because it is actually non-custo like

_2812 it's actually non-custodial it's the word for it's actually in your own

_2816 wallet the money stays in your wallet or in this case you you deposit and

_2822 deposit it in a special kind of address that the exchange can do what it's

_2826 programmed to be allowed to do but it can't do something else

_2831 so you actually there's no way for the exchange to just run away with your

_2834 money and and so there's actually not even a need for you to be able to go in

_2839 and talk to an authority of some kind to go get your money back because the you

_2844 know your your wallet can tell exactly the code of the exchange

_2849 and it can be a very common you know it's only a a few hundred bytes really

_2855 a few hundred characters total code and we your wallet can can see what that

_2863 whole interaction is is going to look like and it will always be

_2868 executed that way properly and so we get

_2873 we get some of these features that that are you you actually cannot use

_2878 decentralized money for some of these use cases unless you have some sort of recourse for if they run

_2886 away with your money and so if we want to have a money

_2890 that is censorship resistant and isn't isn't centrally issued by a

_2895 central bank it doesn't have an authority who can who can arbitrarily

_2899 inflate or or arbitrarily take people's money and give it to other people if

_2904 you want to have a system that works that way you have to have

_2909 and you want it to work for somebody for some of these use cases

_2913 that where where people what people understand is money

_2917 typically works if you want it to work for these use cases you actually have to

_2921 have support for it in the chain we we can't even use

_2926 are our decentralized money for some of for some even just you know

_2932 traditional stocks or or ticket exchange things like that

_2940 if you don't have these facilities in the chain itself so it sounds to me there's a

_2949 lot to unpack here so it sounds to me like basically this would greatly expand the

_2957 programmable properties of of bitcoin cash and would allow for

_2965 actually truly decentralized exchanges and something for the example that you

_2971 gave which is like a decentralized ticketmaster for example

_2976 so an event organizer could sell their tickets and it would be all just on the

_2982 market and people would be free to buy and sell and trade sorry you name

_2987 you you wanted to say something there right so right so i so i just want to address

_2994 more closely the question of whether it would hinder or enhance the

_3001 ability of bitcoin cash to act as money so on a so i want to address it from two

_3006 directions one is the positive one which is that if our focus is to be money we must look at

_3013 what modern money actually looks like instead of just you know pieces of

_3018 paper cash which we did which we do really well already and we can

_3024 send money to people and receive money to people and that we do excellently but

_3030 mob in so this is an argument for smart contracts in general and not just cash

_3036 tokens all the advanced capabilities are actually needed to be competitive as

_3042 modern money like you as a normal person okay imagine if

_3048 you have dollars and you can't open share accounts with your dollars that

_3053 have share control they will look at you like wow what a conscious thing to

_3064 think of why would i want to lose that ability and so on and so forth you know

_3068 there's automatic payments there's all sorts of things that happens in the

_3073 trusted world that if we want to be competitive with we what we would want

_3079 to be able to do some or many of those things trustlessly so that is from

_3085 the positive direction and from the other end would it hinder our existing

_3090 capability so there were many past token proposals

_3097 that were many past token proposals that focuses more on

_3104 that have different focuses of of their own so if you look at them they

_3111 sometimes and often do fans do very fancy things that

_3118 are i would say maybe not that well considered that you know do like

_3125 global variables or global confidence that may that has to re that runs the

_3131 risk of getting into stable scalability so castle incest none of that

_3135 and also you would also need to look at the case of backwards

_3141 compatibility like okay if i have existing software i send and

_3146 receive coins just fine will cash tokens get in the way and

_3153 make me want to rewrite my software and maybe drop support from bitcoin cash

_3157 well cash tokens does not do that so it will not be it will not be a problem in this case

_3163 people can people who don't want cash tokens they don't want to think about it

_3168 can just ignore it completely so that is a very beautiful thing that is not

_3174 present in some other token and non-token proposals before some of

_3181 them you know you will have to debate extensively okay is this actually

_3187 worth the regression in adoption like because that is a very painful thing for

_3194 bitcoin cash people to swallow cash token does not have that problem so

_3200 from this angle cash tokens also does not get in the way whatsoever of

_3206 existing use cases i think it is a very important thing to bring up yep

_3212 can i also chime in on the scalability question a little bit i feel like it was

_3215 it wasn't fully answered so i would say the short honest answer is yes it does

_3220 it would have some small impact on scalability because you're adding

_3226 a small amount of data and also you're adding some more data basically

_3231 potentially to the utxo set but it's very small it's basically

_3237 conceptually you're adding like you have now like with utxo you have value like

_3241 the amount like the amount of bch you got sent you're going to be adding potentially

_3245 optionally another piece of metadata which is like the token data which let's say like

_3250 40 bytes or something and that's optional and so that's just that's another that's

_3254 a data footprint thing and then to actually execute contracts

_3258 they're about they're the same as a p2sh so it's not like you're adding an

_3262 evm turing machine script interpreter it's just a p2sh

_3266 contract you would be executing if you're doing contracts with the token

_3270 you don't even have to do contracts with the token you could just send it

_3274 to somebody else and that's that's so it is there is a non-zero cost in

_3279 terms of execution and data but it's it's very minor it's not

_3283 like a fundamentally paradigm shift changing thing that's going to make bch

_3288 super slow you know conceptually it's the equivalent of just sending more a little

_3292 bit more traffic on chain like sending like if you send someone right now you

_3296 can send them like one utxo you'd be sending in the

_3299 equivalent of two maybe if you're doing tokens

_3305 it's it's not a a paradigm shifting cost thing you know like

_3311 it doesn't change the way pch is structured in a fundamental level at all

_3315 it's just a little bit more data you might be pushing around but it's not

_3317 even a lot of data so that's sort of to answer it honestly

_3321 we should and we should clarify that the extra data is if if the user uses

_3328 it it's not adding extra data to these normal transactions so the only way it

_3332 could possibly add extra data as if you have new more users

_3335 yeah yeah i mean if you're using it so it's optional it's like you don't pay

_3338 for your use basically yeah and in general we don't consider usage to be a

_3342 bad thing on bitcoin cash so just so to use an analogy that i just

_3349 made up so imagine plain old bitcoin cash on p2ph

_3354 as pieces of paper cash previously we enlarged the op

_3361 return size and our return can be thought of you know you are clipping you

_3365 are clipping little pieces of tags onto the paper cache and with cash

_3372 tokens you can now in addition you can now also scribble

_3377 things on that piece of paper cache that is carried over but this

_3383 neat little things do not change the fact that it is pieces of paper cache

_3387 that you can still stack and put in your wallet they do not fundamentally

_3392 change the pieces of paper into you know say a robot that is

_3398 very obvious carry around yeah yeah a pile of bricks

_3402 you know let bars no they're still it's the same fundamental like little little

_3407 conceptual little pieces of of things that you're transferring

_3411 around and we should add that if you scribble on a bill

_3416 the person who gets it next can just easily just erase that completely so

_3420 it's not you're not permanently defacing the bill

_3424 if we want to use the analogy policy you could always destroy tokens yeah they

_3428 disappear the same way utxos disappear once you spend them right you can you

_3431 can merge them together you can take all the coins in your wallet and make them

_3434 into one coin please be very careful in in your

_3438 country or jurisdiction defacing money in the face of the king or queen could

_3442 it be punishable by various things that in my country this is why we this

_3450 is what's coming up this is why we we had a revolution i'm speaking

_3456 sorry john go ahead are you sure i have i have a whole

_3460 different can of worms to open up then then my my question is probably

_3465 very simple so please wait a moment i'll come back to you

_3468 so sorry the the question on everyone's mind about about upgrades and obviously if

_3476 if this goes through next year for next year's upgrade is will it break

_3482 stuff so obviously everything's just going to stop working that's the plan no no no no no it

_3490 actually won't but yeah i'll let you continue yeah so obviously nodes need to be

_3494 upgraded anyway but uh wallets and other services developed on bitcoin cash

_3500 would they need to upgrade or or would they just ignore the

_3504 data they could ignore it just answer it

_3508 yeah so this is this proposal comes after if anybody heard of the

_3514 proposal from from two years ago the pmb3 proposal

_3520 much of this proposal is is informed by how how do we make this stuff work

_3525 without impacting existing wallets at all so that this it is specifically

_3530 designed to not impact existing wallets or indexers existing indexers can

_3536 also ignore ignorecast the only software in the ecosystem that actually

_3541 needs to update is full nodes and miners so full nodes are are the

_3548 pieces of software run by miners and then also they're typically run by by

_3554 businesses in the space that need a objective view of their own of the of

_3558 the network so the only pieces of software that actually must be updated

_3563 will be node implementations indexers will probably want to update

_3568 because there's lots of and indexers are pieces of software that that do

_3573 analysis about the chain and tell you more interesting things than just

_3577 whether or not a block is valid and no some node implementations have

_3582 built-in indexing systems where you can look up interesting things like who has

_3586 what balances and how oh sorry what addresses have what balances and you

_3591 know which addresses have have balances larger than this amount and etc

_3596 so that's indexing software typically will want to to add support

_3602 for cash for cash tokens but the the upgrade is is specifically designed

_3610 so that they can fully ignore it and and won't notice it at all

_3615 and then while it's of course everything continues to work exactly as

_3619 normal wallets will probably want to upgrade because people will probably

_3623 want to use these tokens and decentralized exchanges and

_3626 prediction markets and things like that however existing wallets can just

_3631 continue doing exactly what they're doing and not update in fact we we have

_3638 included a a a type bit for the bitcoin cash address format so that your

_3648 wallet can indicate whether or not it's whether or not it's updated to support

_3653 tokens yet and the nice thing about bitcoin cash's address system

_3658 actually is many of these things what have been planned for for years so we we

_3663 have a a a very easy way of indicating in the address itself so your wallet will

_3670 be able to if you're using an old wallet the old wallet will will tell you

_3674 that this is a this is an address with a version it doesn't understand yet

_3680 and continue on going on with merry way but existing wallets can actually add

_3689 support with the existing address format um with all of the existing libraries for

_3696 the existing programming libraries for the bitcoin cash address format all

_3701 of them support being able to just include this this bit already so

_3706 there's been a lot of previous work that actually makes this very very easy

_3710 and from you from a user's perspective if you're using wall that's not been

_3715 updated to support tokens or they you know they don't want to it'll work

_3718 it'll work exactly as you expect and other users if they try to send you

_3723 money to your try to send you tokens to an address that is produced by that

_3727 wallet your wallet will show an address that that the token

_3732 supporting wallet will no doesn't support tokens so this token supporting

_3736 wallet won't accidentally send tokens to a to a wallet that doesn't understand it

_3741 yet so there's lots of some safety stories i just want to put in a tldr

_3749 basically if you don't like it you can ignore it indefinitely and nothing bad

_3756 would happen to you whatsoever but you might like it so existing everything even if you

_3763 never upgraded electron cash like you know from now until 10 years from now

_3766 theoretically would just continue to work you just can't you don't see tokens

_3769 they're not visible to you and you can't receive them but

_3773 and you can't send them but otherwise existing software will work

_3777 everything looks the same as long as you know you just won't see the new stuff

_3781 this is a huge example just from a practical perspective of the difference

_3785 with slp where slp is not really part of consensus so

_3790 you could have a token and then just accidentally burn it right that kind of

_3794 thing would never happen it's impossible to happen with this one you can't even

_3798 accidentally use it right yeah you can't burn it because you have to sort of sign

_3802 differently if you have a token so you have to like be aware of it yeah you

_3805 can't even bring these and so there's no way to describe a

_3808 wallet it's not going to interfere with your wallet it's not going to cause any

_3813 problems if somebody sends you something it's not going to be like oh i don't

_3817 have to be careful with this wallet or something like that which is something

_3820 people have faced with slp so all right i love this slp but this just goes so

_3825 far beyond that it's it's great right cheap i need tonight can i go on to my

_3830 other point yes you're gonna say something completely different as far as

_3835 topics go so let's let's shift well it was completely different and

_3840 then you brought up the chip process and then now it's not so unique snowflake

_3844 snowflake anymore so one thing i want to bring up is

_3850 the chip process right so some people listening to this might say wait a

_3854 minute we're talking about cash tokens as if it's like already

_3859 there right it's already part of bitcoin cash and yes we are talking about it

_3863 that way but i want to say very clearly right this is not something that's 10

_3869 established if you read the chip process and you follow the chip process which is

_3876 what all the consensus development has been following right there's stages

_3881 there's timelines there's milestones you have to reach and could i ask maybe

_3890 imagine a username or jason i don't know who's the the perfect person but to

_3895 talk about where is this in the chip process and you know how far

_3901 has it gone how much feedback has it has it grabbed from from stakeholders in the bitcoin cash

_3910 ecosystem as to whether it's actually going to happen

_3913 or not so so right now we have so right now where it is is that the technical

_3922 specifications are almost entirely finalized some people might have noticed that jason has put

_3929 out a a put out a pretty much final version we will just scrutinize it and do some bug

_3936 fixing around it perhaps to get it to get it to shape

_3941 and then there is a testable version that a callan has written that callan has

_3948 written so that is very powerful we have gone we have gone around

_3954 and got a preliminary interest from from the note from some for many of the node

_3964 implementations um news and even bchd has shown some preliminary interest in it so there

_3974 is no there is no straight out opposition from that from that front

_3979 and then there are also preliminary interest from developers and

_3987 in terms of stakeholders we are reaching out so far we have

_3993 so so far we have got only positive feedback but we can definitely do more

_3998 and we are going to we are going to do more outreach in the coming weeks and months

_4007 thank you very much if i understand correctly this would need to be finalized by

_4013 november is that correct november is when there is there must be

_4019 a hard commit and a piece of usable software for made

_4024 being released so that is the hardest cutoff line yeah but usable

_4032 software i'm just that on the node side on the consensus layer side no not like

_4036 the whole ecosystem doesn't have to be built by mcdonald's

_4042 it is like it is a convenient place to just you know to just cut it and say

_4047 well this is it it is a you know other other lines are more difficult to

_4052 enforce this line is yeah it's just slightly locked this layer in the node

_4056 in the full nodes on november yes that's the deadline which we which you're going

_4060 to need you know if consuming the whole ecosystem adopts this like the node

_4064 implementation is like 95 or 99 there already on bitcoin cash node

_4069 so yeah i just want to point that out i want to mention also that this oh go

_4076 ahead jason sorry oh yeah i was just going to say that

_4080 yeah and some other note implementations i think that

_4084 there are already some small patches for lib off one of the libraries that of

_4088 course is also implemented so a lot of that is that will probably be able to

_4094 happen very quickly and then also we should note that there will be a test

_4097 net um that activates this proposal and and possibly some of the others that people

_4103 are that that are are under consideration um here in the next few months so that

_4110 developers can can make sure that everybody in the ecosystem can make sure

_4113 that their software is is is cooperating properly on that

_4120 test net for for hopefully a few months before november

_4123 so we're very sure about things yeah like that's happened before november too

_4127 just so we can catch any bugs if there are any but

_4130 hopefully there aren't any yeah and i i what i wanted to mention is

_4135 that just this is not about cash tokens specifically right this is about the

_4140 chip process but just that it it has been quite amazing

_4145 it's enabled us to have this environment where things keep

_4150 moving forward collaboration happens we're discussing

_4155 upgrades more than one year in the future right we're talking way into the future

_4160 whereas in the past we were like bike shedding in the last

_4164 month before upgrade or something like some awful situation where where

_4169 you know we'd last minute be providing software to exchanges and

_4173 miners and so forth so this is done when we're talking about

_4176 november right november is the cutoff for these implementations and agreement to

_4183 exist but then the upgrade doesn't happen until may right so there's six months

_4189 for for the upgrade to actually happen and for for people to say okay well

_4194 i don't want to participate in that so i'm not going to do anything fine

_4198 or you can you know upgrade and say oh i want i want to make an app

_4203 that uses these tokens to to create and a decentralized ticket master or

_4207 whatever it is you have six months to do that right i i i love it i just

_4212 wanted to say a little bit of praise for the yeah it's very cool that we can we can

_4218 now have it's possible to have some lead time where people know that something is going to be

_4225 activated but it is not activated yet it means that developers can work on cool

_4230 things that can launch on launch day and i just want to comment on the

_4237 can you hear me oh yeah i just want to like i just felt it's very collaborative

_4240 like there's no like central authority like rejecting you know you sort of

_4244 discuss ideas and if they make sense we do them i don't know it seems like it's it's a

_4249 i also want to praise the chip process it's been very healthy

_4253 actually oh actually on that on that point i wanted to say so there's a

_4259 on the surface competing specification right there's a competing

_4265 chip that's the group tokens that's the owner yes a guy named bca full

_4272 name is bitcoin cash autist but i'll just go on bca so

_4277 bca owns this and has been developing it a lot and

_4281 and instead of the chip processes turning into like a competition and a

_4285 toxic kind of competition it's actually turned into a

_4293 collaboration right now a large part of that is just due to jason and bitcoin

_4298 and bca being just good people and then collaborative and

_4304 being excited about finding the best possible way to do things but that

_4309 hasn't happened before right this is something quite unique and i love to see it

_4315 these two proposals have instead of like turning into a toxic competition they they

_4321 collaborate they they feed off of each other and turn

_4325 one idea they adopt the idea into the other proposal and both proposals have

_4330 just continuously improved over time and they're getting like optimized at

_4335 this point right like the my new details are getting into kind of perfection so

_4340 i don't know i i love seeing it and bitcoin cash bca

_4345 he had one message he said i asked him to say like could you say something

_4349 about cash tokens right the the per se competing proposal and he said

_4356 yeah i can't wait for the test net what was his comment when i asked him

_4360 yes it's funny like this actually descends from like the bu proposal i think

_4366 last year and then so there were criticisms of the bu proposal right and then sort of

_4372 the the stuff we're working on now these two competing proposals that you're

_4375 talking about they descend from that and so that's just another indication of the

_4378 iterative process where there was a proposal people you know

_4381 weren't super happy about it they wanted to modify it and these two other

_4384 proposals came out that sort of are very similar but they're cousins of each

_4387 other and now we're all even the people you know even the people that lost out let's

_4392 say like bca you might say lost out but he didn't really lose out because

_4395 the proposal is very similar he's really excited too yeah like you said

_4399 i mean because it's been very iterative and it sort of had a natural evolution

_4402 where people's thoughts and ideas were taken into account if they made sense

_4406 and if they hadn't you know made sense then they were ignored but that's fine

_4410 so yeah it's been it's been good it's been very healthy

_4413 yeah so this is so i also want to emphasize that this is the advantage of

_4420 both doing things in the open and having a lot of lead time so that you know this

_4425 kind of consensus building exercises can happen and you in the end you get the

_4430 best possible things given your resources and talent instead of you know

_4435 if you have a thing that you unleash three months before activation and

_4441 then and then people start throwing what to throwing money at each other because it

_4446 becomes a life or death situation and then okay i specifically don't want this

_4451 because of because of thing x or y and then there is there is no room to fix

_4456 it there is no time to fix it everyone is scrambling and then

_4460 and then you know it becomes a struggle it becomes a existential struggle of okay

_4468 this thing must go through or this thing must not go through and holy crap so

_4474 yeah we try to avoid that as much as possible and we are having some

_4478 successes yeah yeah that's absolutely fantastic i love to

_4488 hear it i love to hear the progress i love to hear how

_4493 there there have not been any social issues that have not been

_4499 a roadblock to success here that's really fantastic

_4505 it's already been about an hour i would like to open up the floor to

_4510 questions from the audience but before i do is there any other

_4514 comments or things that the panel would like to share with the group

_4520 i i just want to say one thing so to to be totally honest like coming

_4525 into the whole tokens thing i was an extreme skeptic and i thought

_4532 you know okay these things kind of sound neat but you know let's not screw up

_4539 the money behavior of bitcoin cash and the properties of bitcoin cash that make it

_4546 very good money and you know especially scalability right

_4552 like the whole point is to to reach everybody in the world and to help

_4555 everybody in the world and make it available for to for for everybody so

_4564 i was very skeptical at the beginning but after reading understanding

_4569 listening debating and desperately trying to understand

_4575 what these guys are able to to talk about i got the picture right that this

_4581 enables not just sending and receiving this enables an actual economy

_4589 and i kind of became convinced that if you don't have an actual economy you

_4594 don't have money and if you don't have an economy

_4597 that's permissionless and trustless in the way that bitcoin cash is

_4604 you're not really achieving a revolution right

_4608 so just just to say i started as an extreme skeptic but at the end of the process i

_4614 i thought wait a minute this is actually achieving something that that makes

_4618 bitcoin cash's money better than it was before not just an

_4623 add-on to it that's really well said man can i agree

_4627 with you i just want to say i have exact same position like i started as an

_4630 extreme spec skeptic for the reasons you outlined just oh my god we're adding

_4634 weight to the chain what's going on and i realize that the weight we're

_4637 adding is very minor very efficient and the the use cases and the

_4642 financial tools it unlocks permissionlessly are just amazing i mean

_4646 you're getting so much for so little cost and the cost is negligible if you

_4649 don't use it and and let me just double down again

_4653 triple down on this for anybody who knows callan you'll know

_4659 how powerful that statement just was yeah i mean i'm a really because i'm a

_4664 performance nazi like i'm really i'm like an ultra conservative i'm like

_4668 ultra right wing when it comes to performance stuff i just don't want things to break i want

_4672 them to get faster i don't want things to get slower or heavier

_4675 so the fact that i was impressed by by how lightweight this is and how powerful

_4678 it is so yeah thanks hard to argue with that endorsement

_4686 does anyone else on the panel have a final final statement before we open up

_4689 the questions speaking of forever hold your piece all right in that case

_4701 i would like to open up the floor to the audience does anyone have any

_4706 questions it looks like jerry from bitcoin bay has requested i can add him here

_4716 i don't see it i've added him as a speaker okay am i on hey you are now

_4738 yeah thanks everyone for this panel discussion i just have a two-part question

_4746 don't tie hand-in-hand together one is for the cash tokens and all the

_4752 stuff are there gonna be plans for like simple developer tools who for

_4758 people let's say you know like you know entry-level developers who just want to

_4761 get into the space are there going to be like simple tools to help them build

_4765 these kinds of and then number two the question was you know obviously we're talking

_4772 about tokens nfts and whatnot and you know like slp i feel like

_4782 regardless of the the recent coin flex and the smart bch stuff but it does

_4787 seem like a lot of trend has been moving away from the slp infrastructure to the

_4792 smart bch given that you know how the the chain is you know going a little bit messy times

_4799 and whatnot like do you think you know the slp tokens you know could use a bit more

_4807 love just for this one year waits in between the time

_4811 for the cash token to be released i can speak to the first one so

_4821 tools for developers definitely the the decentralized exchange that was the

_4829 design that was published yesterday is is using some new tools that that are

_4833 still being built that i'm working on and hopefully other people will also

_4838 work on work on tooling if you're interested in that if anybody is

_4842 interested in getting getting into that space and and building things with cash

_4846 tokens definitely join the cash token dev telegram group and there are a couple

_4853 other development telegram groups you can find there bit off ide is the

_4859 is the tool that the there's a development environment

_4864 that the decentralized exchange published yesterday is was designed in

_4870 and yes definitely plan to improve that for tokens further

_4876 i don't personally work on slp stuff is there anybody else that wants to

_4879 speak to that so i don't personally develop on that either but i just want

_4886 to make a make a little bit of comment on the second part of the question so

_4891 yes we are aware that slp the scene of slp tools and

_4899 infrastructure is not in a very good shape and but on the other hand slp as a protocol

_4911 will never actually stop working like it it just cannot it just cannot do that

_4918 as a as a protocol and especially because it is also carried by

_4924 the bitcoin cash chain so there are many there are many tools that continue to

_4930 work today such as the bchd indexer the the bitcoin verde indexer and the

_4941 wallets like electron cache slp to a lesser to a lesser extent and i think there are a

_4947 couple other rpc wallets that would that those would continue to work

_4954 [Music] so whether those things will be

_4958 improved is up to the maintainers of those pieces of software i'm not

_4966 i'm i'm not sure people in this channel are are good

_4971 are good sources of information of their intentions but one thing i can say about

_4975 it is that when cash token comes online it might be easy it might be easier to support

_4985 migration from slp to cash tokens if people choose to as opposed to you know

_4993 to the sbch sidechain but obviously spca sidechain offers a whole host of other

_4999 capabilities that are you know that are unique to the evm chain and

_5004 people choose to migrate there for a reason but if they choose to migrate to

_5009 cash tokens it is on the same chain so they might have an easier time

_5013 so that's all i can comment about this yeah

_5017 and on migration it's it's actually very easy to do slp

_5023 token migrations to the the cache token primitives so i imagine

_5028 i i don't know what the slp ecosystem is is planning for

_5035 what the upgrade might look like but it is it would not be very difficult

_5039 to to specify a migration standard and the migrations can can happen either

_5046 trusted or there is also a a very simple trustless strategy of

_5051 migrating the slp egos an slp token to cash show confirmatives

_5057 so i imagine what what hopefully what should happen there is if the slp

_5063 title continues to be used hopefully it'll be

_5067 a migration a migration strategy to use these underlying primitives and and then

_5072 slp will will provide some of those higher level standards for what how

_5076 people expect it to use them in their wallets and things like that

_5080 jerry did we answer your questions yeah yeah you did and i also noticed

_5086 chris troutner in the room here he's worked on quite a lot on the on the

_5091 slp indexers and stuff so yeah but yeah thanks a lot guys

_5098 thank you thank you i see mr fiendish you have a

_5105 question for us hey guys how's it going good cool yeah it was great hearing

_5116 about cash tokens i think i understand a lot better now so thank

_5122 you very much and i think it's you know first of all i'd just like to say i

_5126 think it really proves the chip process is a great step forward for the bitcoin

_5130 cash community of course it helps that having two great developers that are obviously working

_5136 together with bitcoin cash autism jason i guess this helps the process

_5140 tremendously but i think it's it's really great yeah my question

_5146 is slightly it's linked towards general protocols and json so as i

_5151 understand um jason is working for general protocols and i was speaking on the phone to

_5159 rolando bryson just earlier today and there was just the the question popped

_5163 up about how the funding of this development and research will be affected by the current

_5171 drama let's call it that going on with coinflex and smart bch and will this

_5176 have any effect on general protocols and also on the further development and

_5181 implementation of cash tokens in the may upgrade 223. hey the ceo happens to be here

_5189 and i'll say the the cash token work itself is is work that i'm i'm doing

_5194 personally um it's it's not being funded by general protocols there are

_5201 definitely contracting things i i hope to do with gender protocols that have to do with

_5207 cash tokens in the future but for example this month's work on

_5211 on cash tokens has been a personal thing wow thank you man wow

_5217 yep and just to to answer the question um no they're really quite independent

_5223 things the the current kerfluffle an ongoing house fire are really independent from from this

_5233 development and i think the end result will be that you know there's multiple ways to do

_5240 things but the one we're talking about here specifically is going to be a way to do

_5246 things on the bch main chain which has proven over the last how

_5253 many years is it now 11 years 12 13 years i don't know it depends on

_5260 how many times yeah almost 12 and a half years it could be

_5264 quite conservative right and not break and the chip process has further kind

_5273 of entrenched that conservativism of you know things are going to work

_5278 they're not going to break you're not going to have any issues with

_5283 the things that are that you're using so yeah i think the end result will be that

_5287 there's multiple options for ways to do things and the ways to do them on the bitcoin

_5293 cash main chain are going to be solid as a rock

_5299 and but yeah the that's a little bit out in the future and it depends on it

_5303 being accepted into bitcoin cash and then it depends on people

_5308 developing those applications does that answer your question for

_5313 english yeah sure so that absolutely answers my question and also jason death you're

_5321 doing this as a side project or voluntary this is absolutely insane to hear and thank

_5328 you for your great great work thank you yeah all all proposal work that i've

_5337 that i've done all the chip work i've done has been personal i did i've

_5340 been doing some contracting with general protocols on on any hedge and and

_5345 some of the other very cool things that general protocol is working on but yeah

_5349 i do chip work as personal as of yet [Laughter] i love to hear it

_5360 thank you so much for all of your hard work and your we we're all better for it

_5367 oh i wanted to mention something sure just a point that fiendish made here

_5372 which i want to to shoot down in a friendly way is that you know he said

_5380 jason made the proposal for cash tokens and he is a developer this is very true

_5388 bitcoin cash it's gone bca bca he made this comment just now and i

_5394 remember that i wanted to say this made the proposal he's not a developer

_5400 right he made this proposal because he understands that the the kind of

_5404 fundamental issues and design but he's not a he's not a developer he made

_5410 this proposal and you know adapted the original group proposal into what it

_5416 is today with with many iterations like very significant iterations of the

_5421 design but he's not a developer and i think this is a really key point worth

_5426 mentioning that the chip process the way bitcoin cash gets upgraded is

_5432 not by developers it's not by developers it's by not

_5436 necessarily by developers yeah stakeholders they can buy stakeholders

_5440 yes developers are one class of stakeholders in the bitcoin cash

_5443 ecosystem and the the the upgrades that happen are they're they're fed out to to

_5452 everybody who's involved right exchanges miners developers wallet owners

_5457 entrepreneurs business owners all these people they they go through

_5462 everybody right they go through all the relevant stakeholders and and the whole

_5466 the whole ecosystem chips are not developer documents chips

_5472 are upgrades to the bitcoin cash ecosystem and they're not

_5479 you know the the domain of developers developers are necessary to do them but

_5482 so is economics and so is you know social issues and so forth all of these

_5490 things are tied up together so anybody who thinks they have

_5495 something very important for bitcoin cash that's what the chip process is for

_5501 so so go for it there's no need for you to be the developer to to accomplish

_5506 this stuff what's really needed is ownership and people

_5511 coordinating and bringing people together to make something happen

_5515 but there is some engineering skills involved like i'm impressed by bca is

_5520 like you know you have to understand how the blockchain works fundamentally like

_5522 as an engineering entity like it doesn't mean you have to know how to program it

_5526 so just to clarify but yeah i agree with you the key thing about bca is he he's

_5532 kind of the magical package where he he's he's done

_5536 everything himself right he's brought all these different aspects together in

_5540 one person but that's not necessarily necessary the the key thing that he did

_5544 is push it ahead to really really have the angular and make it happen

_5549 right the organization and collaboration aspect is what really made it happen

_5554 because there have been a lot of ideas there have been a lot of hey this would

_5559 be a neat thing to do but in the end what really makes it

_5563 happen is organizing it and owning it and making it happen

_5567 yeah i mean he's been obsessed with it for like two years or something or a

_5570 year and he's taken everyone's comments about it and internalized them thought

_5574 about them deeply put them down on paper and then sort of gave it just oxygen

_5580 and energy yeah and owned it like you said like organize it yeah absolutely

_5583 exactly and jason has done the same he's totally right of course

_5589 as well yes yeah both of these people have done the same internalized it sort

_5592 of just thought about it deeply and felt it and lived it for a while

_5596 yeah yeah all right sorry i wanted to add that for bca's benefit there yeah certainly the the technical

_5606 approach over those two years has has shifted entirely multiple times

_5612 so such that like each iteration was was almost unrecognizable but it is

_5618 really important to have if you're if you're really

_5622 if you're really interested in something happening on on bitcoin cash

_5628 that that's a a demonstration of just just trying to get people in the room and and

_5636 talking about it can help to have it on people's minds so that

_5641 when when when people are especially the developers who are

_5644 thinking about some of the consensus systems and stuff if it's if it's top of

_5648 mind when something pops up that makes it seem more possible for

_5655 them they might they might figure out a different strategy that

_5660 works really really well in this case it was it was definitely

_5665 kind of coincidental and in february that some of the pmv3 work that i had been

_5671 working on for a year or so on i the the decentralized exchange designs

_5678 i had been working on decentralized exam exchange designs using the pmv3

_5684 proposal and i realized that there were some some primitives that i that i

_5689 had abstracted to to work with these contracts and it turns out

_5696 in in quite the surprise that if you if you look at them just right they look like

_5701 tokens and so i messaged bca and and emmy name and

_5707 some of the other people i knew were had been had been talking about tokens for

_5710 like a year and a half and said hey i've got a an idea for how maybe we should do

_5715 this so that it enables decentralized applications and then i

_5721 ground out a spec in a couple weeks there there in february and so the and then

_5727 the technical the technical direction changed again very completely but but

_5732 the a lot of the the kindling has been there from from

_5737 just kind of the persistence the persistence and the bringing bringing

_5742 people together to talk about the goal of getting tokens happening that

_5749 most certainly helped with the the creative energy there

_5755 yeah and i just want i i just want to top this up with

_5760 the emphasis that for anyone else who is interested in being such a activist

_5766 or entrepreneur that pushes a proposal it is important and in fact very

_5773 beneficial to keep an open mind and be really sure what do you actually want to

_5778 achieve in the end because very oft because very often what you want to get

_5783 is not the same as the details of the proposals that you are pushing

_5789 when you push a proposal you will gradually learn that you will

_5795 gradually learn from talking to various talented people oh maybe

_5800 there is a better way to do to achieve what i want

_5804 maybe what i want what i thought i want was not actually the thing maybe i want

_5810 something even higher level and there is a completely different

_5814 thing that does the same thing or you know maybe i want to change

_5819 this or that thing in my proposal or maybe someone else's has the proposal

_5823 actually i actually just merged with them so all of these things can happen

_5827 and it will they will be extremely beneficial for any activist or

_5831 entrepreneur who keep an open mind and that is the benefit of having a

_5837 transparent and open process as opposed you know again in the past a lot of

_5842 times there is no time and so people get into this life or death that's fine okay

_5847 i have my proposal you have your proposal and they do this and they

_5852 purportedly achieved the same thing by going through some slightly or

_5857 significantly different routes and then we stab each other until one of us died

_5862 so yeah we we don't do that anymore no no stabbing please

_5870 so just just to reiterate bitcoin cash artist everybody loves you we

_5876 we wish you could come and talk but you don't want to that's fine and also

_5883 you know in in telegram groups all the time people talk about you know

_5888 bitcoin cash should and then we say well go ahead and make a

_5892 chip and everybody's you know first response is well i'm not a developer

_5897 and this just goes to show you don't have to be

_5901 you just have to be somebody who's willing to own this idea and convince

_5905 the correct people to work on it and develop it if you really really believe

_5911 that it is something that is worth doing and i see we have another speaker

_5918 with us jonas would you like to add to the conversation yeah hi can you hear me

_5925 yes welcome yes welcome i have one question regarding cash

_5930 tokens it was a long time since i read the spec but is there some parts

_5936 that is not possible to verify just by an spv wallet

_5943 nope fully spp verifiable so spv is simplified payment verification is

_5948 specified on satoshi's white paper but yes it means that the light clients

_5955 that are fully validating can can fully validate cache token

_5962 inputs and transactions using using only the the light wallet

_5967 contents they already have so yes fully spv compatible

_5972 and maybe i'll go even further spv simplified payment verification and

_5977 in general light wallets because there's actually other other strategies

_5981 for achieving what spv does light wallets in general are

_5986 are a huge awesome feature of of the design of bitcoin cash and and bitcoin

_5991 cash like cryptocurrencies a lot of actually a lot of account based

_5997 chains cannot really compete with the with the support for lightweight wallets that

_6004 bitcoin cash has so that's actually a very that brings up a very interesting

_6011 feature set that i think will differentiate bitcoin cash

_6015 using cash tokens bitcoin cash with cash tokens can have decentralized

_6020 applications they can they're they're very efficient highly scalable very

_6024 low fees and also people can interact with those

_6028 decentralized applications using very lightweight wallets which is

_6033 is different there are for account based chains a lot of the wallets people

_6037 end up using are are basically trusted yeah you're asking fbc

_6042 yeah yeah obviously you're talking to some company who claims they are running the chain and

_6050 that is not the case on bitcoin cash can i just add a little bit because i

_6056 know jonas is a developer so conceptually it's just like an extra

_6059 field that can go with your utxo so all you know the way you would validate a

_6063 utxo that it exists or not in spv right you're sort of given a proof that the

_6068 transaction that you're told about was on the chain

_6071 it's the same you know that proof applies to the to the token data like

_6075 it's just an extra piece of metadata that goes with the utxo which is the

_6078 token data so you know you can prove its existence on the chain using the same method that

_6084 you would for just an amount right just for utxo just add like technical

_6090 nuance to that what about like total amounts of fungible tokens

_6099 can those also be verified yes so you would have you would need an indexer for

_6103 that and you ask it basically show me the genesis tx for this token and then

_6107 you can see the genesis tx you can verify that it existed on the

_6111 chain using spv methods you know merkle proof whatever and then you know that

_6116 what you saw on the genesis is all there exists to some degree to some degree you do

_6122 actually yeah you actually don't need an indexer there because it is spv validatable

_6127 because the genesis transaction yeah there's there's actually you might

_6133 need an indexer because it's like the previous the previous the thing that

_6136 spent the token right it's it's a little bit it depends on

_6141 your spv implementation so we use spv to describe what's in the in the in the

_6145 satoshi white paper but they're for example like a neutrino

_6149 implementation would be able to would be able to look it up from a light

_6154 wallet so it's it is not a if you're yeah light wallets should

_6160 have no problem looking at the genesis transaction and seeing what the total

_6163 supply is though maybe if you are interested in what the

_6169 how much of the supply has been burnt then you have to start looking at all

_6173 the transactions that involve that token but if all you're curious about is the

_6177 original supply first off as a technical detail fungible tokens have a

_6182 fixed supply at creation and then yes you can you can look up with several

_6187 different lights like light wallet strategies i i want to add on for anybody who's

_6194 familiar with slp it can sometimes be a you know very heavy process to be like

_6201 oh hey i got this token let me load it up in my wallet and you're like okay let

_6205 me wait for two hours while it figures out whether this is a valid token or not

_6209 right that that's completely gone from this picture right this is all spv it's

_6214 built into the utxo more or less all the information well no

_6219 all the information you need to use the token that you have is completely built

_6224 into the the coin that you're holding to the the token that you're holding in

_6230 whatever wallet you have but if there's like some extra meta

_6234 information that you want to know about it you may have to go and get an index

_6238 or to tell you a bit about it yeah and i'm happy to follow up on on

_6244 technical details further also on the on telegram and on these chat

_6249 groups or on bitcoin cash research forums yeah thanks answers my question

_6262 thank you very much are there any other questions from the audience

_6273 i'll take that as i know in that case i will bring this discussion to an end

_6281 if anyone is interested in continuing this conversation feel free to stick around

_6288 i will open the floor assuming anyone is interested

_6294 otherwise i'd like to thank all today's guests jason dreissner kailyn kaliano imagine a

_6300 username john neary thank you for coming today

_6304 thank you for your time please follow us on twitter for

_6314 the latest updates and if you have any suggestions for future

_6319 topics that you'd like to be discussed feel free to ask in the

_6326 telegram group which is pch network discussions

_6330 thank you very much for tuning in and if anyone would like to talk about any

_6339 other topics in the bch universe then i will stick around for a while anyone

_6344 who wants to drop off go to bed i know it's quite early for some of you

_6348 then please don't feel obligated to stick around

_6353 oh sorry so is the chat still gonna be open with voice and everything yeah oh

_6356 wouldn't sure thank you all see you later take care everybody

_6367 good night bye like i said i triple down on on reinforcing the fact that you

_6381 think this is a good idea i'm i don't know how to like i don't know how to

_6386 communicate to people what that means you know what it means because usually

_6391 when ideas come up right like there's a spectrum of people who are

_6395 like oh wow that's really neat we should do it and then there's like the other

_6398 end of the spectrum who's like what are you talking about like no

_6404 yeah it's funny because like socially yeah i'm like yeah i'm like ultra

_6408 conservative socially i'm a liberal i guess in some ways

_6411 well i don't know anymore but yeah when it comes to the channel like super

_6414 conservative like just no no no it's the default answer unless you can't

_6420 which is good and you need some people to do that

_6422 which are great qualities to have yeah you need some people to say no just

_6426 so you can prove yes to them you know [Laughter]

_6430 and that's also the default of this process right it's like oh you have a

_6434 good idea no all right yeah but not in an evil way is it really a

_6439 good idea which is good i mean you need that because the chain once you change it

_6444 once you change the consensus rules it's like forever like so exactly yeah you

_6448 have to literally deal with it forever like as long as it just survives you're

_6452 gonna have to have even if you turn it off in the

_6454 future like yeah you have to like support those blocks in between that had

_6457 that rule god damn it so yeah that's why you have to say no sort of

_6464 until you can be proven yes yeah and in some of the early designs

_6469 right some of the early designs really were not very conservative about how

_6473 they worked and you would have to track quite a lot of

_6476 detail and so forth where like if you looked at it's like

_6481 yeah that might actually impact scalability i'm not sure this is such a

_6484 great idea but like the current proposals are so far beyond the originals

_6492 or yeah or in the case of of some other prior proposals you asked the

_6498 question will it break things yeah it will what will it break a lot of things

_6505 everything is that worth it maybe yeah but it's really powerful and it's really

_6512 cool yeah no let's not break things please oh actually that's an important not an

_6518 important point but you know some people will say oh you're upgrading it so that

_6521 it doesn't change things and you can just use the new stuff

_6526 does that mean it's a soft fork right because the whole meaning of hard fork

_6530 and soft fork and split has just been totally bastardized and i don't think

_6534 anybody really understands what those words mean anymore but if

_6538 somebody were to say oh is this a soft fork right what would be the answer to

_6542 that initially it looks like a software but it's not actually it's like a side

_6548 fork i don't know it's kind of a soft work in a way as far

_6551 as the note is concerned it's not strictly speaking software

_6557 but as far as like the colloquial meaning of software which is what people

_6561 understand is a non-breaking change that is kind of invisible to you

_6566 in that non-technical definition of soft work which is not technically correct

_6570 you could say this is a soft fork in a way but it's not right because also the

_6574 term software also has a negative connotation in the bitcoin cash

_6576 community so right because to like introduce evil stuff

_6582 right yeah the the course development of it is there so this is more like no

_6588 if you want to keep the old system you can right if somebody totally disagreed

_6593 with this they could keep the old system with absolutely zero interference but if

_6597 they want to continue on bitcoin cash or you know on with these rules with cash

_6602 tokens then you have to you know you have to choose you can't just do a fake

_6606 thing where you're like oh yeah there's these new rules that kind of snuck in

_6610 there on people so so it's a hard fork it is a hard fork technically speaking

_6615 it doesn't yeah it's not technically like but with like minimal disruption like

_6620 exactly yeah like like invisible almost just on the consensus layer it is sort

_6624 of a hard fork technically oh okay bca offered a

_6628 short note and he said it's a hard fork that breaks only nodes and not other

_6632 software that's a pretty good description there yeah yeah that's a

_6635 good actually i think would like to participate but they're

_6649 pseudonymous they have you know a username they don't attach it

_6654 to a real meet space name or whatever and they

_6658 just don't want to be on on voice and that kind of thing that's all they do

_6663 yeah someone has their hand raised hello ray i had it right yeah

_6670 hi guys i just want to say thank thank you for organizing this twitter

_6674 space it's re really informative and yeah thank you so much and great line of

_6679 speakers a very quick question with regards to increasing block size to

_6685 two five six megabytes now i know they're sort of listening to

_6690 the bitcoin cash podcast and i noticed that basically i think

_6696 that it's currently in testing at the moment um would we have any idea as to when we

_6702 potentially may be sort of looking to go live with the 256 megabyte upgrade or

_6710 just a just a couple of thoughts so i want to do so i want to jump in a

_6715 bit so that is unlike so far that is unlikely to happen in

_6723 the next in this cycle that activates may to 223 and because we are you

_6730 know we are quite conservative on this regard but in the in a different sense

_6735 of conservatism as opposed to you know the btc people that many many of us hate so so

_6744 those so that flavor of conservatism is never change anything but our

_6751 basically never hard for never change anything but our flavor of

_6756 conservativeness is that oh we have a look around and we realized that

_6763 if we recklessly change things before they before we fully consider

_6770 everything um it is we are a monetary system it's not just like hey okay the no developers

_6778 tested the notes the notes are okay okay good let's throw it out

_6783 put it put it out there oh well our notes are probably ready for 256 so max

_6789 but we look around the place and then we see what we happen to see is that there

_6794 are some other chains that i would not name just do it without consultation and

_6800 without much deliberation and then their applications break they're the user the

_6807 users the services that actually run the monetary system you know people who

_6813 actually do business their stuff break they get frustrated they leave which is

_6818 a very bad outcome so what we are doing right now is to lay the

_6825 groundwork because we needed to start early it is a very it is a many months to you

_6832 know year-long process that we need to go to all the critical

_6837 infrastructure providers all the critical service providers and test

_6842 their software and we already got some preliminary data on the you know some

_6848 of them are poorly suited one way or another bottlenecked in terms of

_6853 supporting much beyond 32 max and we need to address that and when we make

_6858 sure that most of our ecosystem is not gonna just croak upon the first you know 20 mag

_6868 block that would be the time to upgrade and i'm i i can't i can't

_6874 give a commitment or anything but i'm optimist optimistic that it will happen

_6879 in the new that it will happen in the near future yeah

_6885 yeah just to underscore what you said so so we we did do that scaling

_6890 report i'm speaking for bitcoin cash note now and for fulcrum i guess and it turns

_6897 out that yes if you get to that size you have to do some engineering work

_6901 otherwise you might see disruption and so given that that's the case that it would

_6907 require some engineering work and given that that it's not an ultra seen as an

_6912 ultra high priority need you know most of the block the time the

_6915 blocks are under a megabyte right but we're not going anywhere yeah

_6920 i'm sorry see that again but we're do we're doing the ground

_6923 referee anyway we're doing the groundwork for it and and there is

_6927 engineering focus that will go in that direction it's sort of this token stuff has been a

_6931 higher priority because it unlocks so much that can't be done now

_6936 and so we've been focusing on that more because it seems like a more pressing

_6940 need but yes we will eventually get to 256 and we're doing the groundwork now

_6944 and and yeah that's that's sort of the short answer

_6948 that i can give that's brilliant thank you guys so much

_6952 that's really insightful too and also really reassuring that you know there's

_6955 so much work going on with the testing side of things so thank you thanks for

_6961 participating thank you for the question that actually reminds me somebody

_6971 i forget who it was but somebody was suggesting a dynamically adjustable block size is

_6977 that still a possibility that would be me that is dead

_6985 that is that is definitely still a proposal on the

_6989 that is definitely still a proposal on the table and sorry i muted so anyway so

_7014 that proposed that proposal that an adaptive block size proposal if adopted

_7019 would eliminate basically all future questions of whether we are going to

_7023 increase block size so that that proposal i personally think is pretty

_7028 awesome but we still need to do the groundwork before we do that so it

_7033 will be a choice it will be a choice and i personally think it's a pretty good

_7036 choice when the time comes [Laughter]

_7051 yeah i mean conceptually right like you know if as long as you've removed the

_7054 question from the developers right of like can you erase the black slides no

_7060 it removes that central point right if the chain can just do itself when it

_7063 needs to then that's like the ultimate decentralization right you don't have to

_7066 ask the developers to do it just conceptually speaking but

_7070 i actually haven't looked at the proposal i don't know the details at all

_7079 all right are there any other questions anyone

_7083 else want to speak i'll take that as a no

_7097 well i guess there's just nothing else to talk about we've talked about

_7102 everything there is so all of a sudden

_7110 did you guys catch the new kenobi series no i'm just kidding

_7113 talking about something completely not related it did i did

_7119 i can't believe they killed obi-wan kenobi yeah i know

_7131 [Laughter] or did it

_7134 maybe on my telegram i see max wants a shout out for some reason so

_7144 hey max thanks for joining us yeah max is a good example of somebody who's

_7156 actually working hard to use right bitcoin cash as as money in

_7161 commerce in local commerce so i respect what he's working on

_7169 me too cool all right well i'm going to take off it's very good to spend time with

_7175 you guys yes thank you everyone for your time i super appreciate it

_7181 thank you we'll do this again soon have a good night everyone

_7186 let's take it easy you