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Transcript [Roger Ver & Joel Valenzuela Discuss the Upcoming BCH Fork by BitcoinABC]

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Hello everyone.

ITS my first transcript article and its requires a lot of time to edit but i forget to ask permissions from @RogerVer soo please pardon mee sir if youre seeing my article.

The transcript is done from a video when @RogerVer and Joel Valenzuela Discuss the Upcoming BCH Fork by BitcoinABC.

EDIT: I DONT KNOW WHY THERE IS NO EXC MARK IN MY VIDEO I HAVE COPIED THESE TRANSCRIPTS FROM MY NOTEPAD BECAUSE IF I WRITE THE WHOLE TRANSCRIPT IN READ.CASH SO ITS VERY LAGGY.

Transcript from here

00:00

[Music]

00:03

universal healthcare that sounds

00:04

wonderful but when you look at what

00:05

universal healthcare actually is it's

00:07

just a euphemism for

00:08

a bunch of people with guns threatening

00:10

people with violence if they don't you

00:11

know

00:12

do the the healthcare system the way

00:13

that people with the guns want it to be

00:15

and if you put it that way oh

00:16

universal health care doesn't sound so

00:18

great after all and so i think the same

00:20

with the infrastructure funding plan

00:21

well who doesn't want infrastructure

00:22

who doesn't want it to be funded well

00:24

how can you be opposed the

00:25

infrastructure funding plan

00:26

but if you look at what it actually is

00:28

part of the coinbase reward

00:30

that's been going on for what you know

00:32

almost 12 years now

00:33

uh instead of it going to the miners

00:35

it's going to go to abc and armory

00:37

sashay and they get to decide what

00:39

they're going to do with it

00:44

[Music]

00:48

so hey everyone i have the wonderful

00:50

pleasure of speaking with the one and

00:51

only

00:52

bitcoin jesus roger fair how's it going

00:54

roger

00:55

hey joel so i

00:59

wanted to chat with you after i started

01:02

to see some

01:02

drama unfolding in the bitcoin cash

01:04

world and

01:06

it where it seemed like it wasn't just

01:08

people arguing because arguing happens

01:10

people disagree who cares

01:12

but it seemed like there might be an

01:13

actual chain split in another

01:15

bitcoin for coming out of this whole

01:17

thing and so

01:19

i initially in the recent weeks

01:22

especially you put your public

01:24

opposition

01:25

to the fork or to the people forking at

01:28

least

01:29

much much higher and there's been a

01:31

little bit more of an escalation and it

01:33

seems like

01:34

um as someone who's followed the bitcoin

01:36

cash community kind of from a distance

01:38

and a little more closely lately i've

01:41

seen a lot of people

01:42

some something kind of surprising on

01:44

both sides of this

01:45

issue very much like drawn into the

01:47

different camps

01:48

some people i did not expect to be on

01:50

both sides of the issue

01:52

and so yeah i think it's worth kind of

01:55

getting your take in a good spot by you

01:58

know

01:58

especially from someone who you know

02:00

myself

02:02

i kind of have i have opinions i don't

02:05

really care too much on either side i

02:08

definitely don't want bad things to

02:09

happen that that

02:10

i do care about but i kind of i see both

02:14

sides and i'm not exactly sure which

02:16

which side i'd i completely picked for

02:18

very different reasons

02:19

and so as a semi-neutral person i'd

02:22

definitely like to get your

02:23

get your take on this so first off we're

02:25

talking about the ifp or the

02:27

infrastructure funding proposal um

02:31

so when was the ifp first introduced not

02:34

this current one but

02:35

any ifp so we should probably explain

02:38

exactly what the infrastructure funding

02:39

proposal is because

02:40

i think that's the euphemism uh for what

02:43

it actually is

02:44

right so you can you know universal

02:46

healthcare that sounds wonderful but

02:47

when you look at what universal

02:49

care actually is it's just a euphemism

02:50

for a bunch of people with guns

02:52

threatening people with violence if they

02:54

don't you know do the the health care

02:55

system in the way that people with the

02:56

guns want it to be and if you put it

02:58

that way oh

02:59

universal health care doesn't sound so

03:00

great after all and so i think the name

03:02

of the infrastructure funding plan well

03:04

who doesn't want infrastructure

03:05

who doesn't want it to be funded well

03:06

how can you be opposed the

03:08

infrastructure funding plan

03:09

but if you look at what it actually is

03:11

is it's a

03:12

part of the coinbase reward that's been

03:14

going on for what you know

03:16

almost 12 years now uh instead of it

03:19

going to the miners it's going to go to

03:20

abc and armory sashay and they get to

03:23

decide what they're going to do with it

03:24

um that doesn't sound like such a

03:28

wonderful thing like one developer

03:30

and one group of developers get to

03:31

decide hey we're gonna alter the way

03:33

bitcoin has fundamentally worked for the

03:35

last you know well over a decade

03:37

uh to just basically enrich ourselves to

03:39

eight percent of the total block reward

03:41

each block

03:42

uh i think that's not nearly as

03:45

palatable

03:46

um because of the historical

03:49

track record of bitcoin bitcoin never

03:51

ever ever had anything like that

03:53

uh i think once you start tampering with

03:55

the the

03:56

emission schedule and the the uh

04:00

the block reward you're you're a whole

04:03

new coin at that point right so if you

04:05

want some coin where part of the block

04:07

reward

04:08

goes to pay for you know infrastructure

04:10

developers or that sort of thing

04:11

you have a bunch to choose from right

04:13

you have dash you have z

04:15

cash you have z coin you have a bunch of

04:17

others out there as well

04:19

um a bunch of coins that were pre-mined

04:21

to begin with a big

04:22

reward bitcoin never had that bitcoin

04:24

cash never had that

04:25

bitcoin sv never had that uh this is a

04:28

huge huge huge

04:30

change to the what bitcoin ever has been

04:33

uh and at the moment the group of

04:35

developers that want to do that abc they

04:37

have a very very small minority of the

04:38

hash rate

04:39

uh there's a future market that trades

04:41

it they have about 1 12

04:42

the price so that the minority hash rate

04:44

the you know majority or minority price

04:47

and uh and they're the ones that are

04:48

making this huge huge drastic change to

04:50

what bitcoin has always been

04:52

uh so i don't think it's so much as a

04:54

four this is just they're creating

04:56

their own coin forking off the the

04:58

bitcoin cash blockchain

05:00

so that means all cash holders will get

05:02

an airdrop

05:03

on november 15th and then they can

05:04

decide what they want to do with that

05:06

airdrop they can keep it they can buy

05:07

more of it or they can sell it for

05:08

more ethereum to do defy stuff they can

05:10

sell it for more dash they can sell it

05:12

for more bitcoin cash they can do

05:13

whatever they want but uh

05:14

i i would be stunned if it winds up

05:16

being the majority chain uh somehow

05:18

because it doesn't have

05:20

the majority support it's a super

05:21

contentious thing the big surprising

05:23

thing

05:24

here like you mentioned certain people

05:25

within the community that you're

05:26

surprised came out in favor of this

05:28

um the one that i'm the most surprised

05:30

by i think is vin armani seems to be a

05:32

big fan of this but i think a lot of

05:34

these people they're like oh

05:35

they see they see dollar signs and they

05:38

want it and then

05:39

i guess there's a whole lot of truth to

05:41

that old adage that you know

05:42

always accuse your an enemy is too

05:44

strong of a word but always accuse your

05:46

your opponent of doing exactly what

05:48

you're doing and so there's been a big

05:50

meme where

05:51

uh meme war on social media and whatnot

05:53

and uh

05:54

calling all the people that don't want

05:56

the ifp who don't want to change the

05:58

coin issuance of bitcoin

05:59

cash they're calling them bitshifix

06:01

which i guess is a reference to

06:03

socialism and communism and that sort of

06:04

thing

06:05

but if you look at it that's exactly

06:08

what the ifp supporters are doing

06:10

they're claiming hey

06:10

we're doing a whole bunch of work and

06:12

you guys don't want to pay us for our

06:13

work so we're just playing gonna take it

06:15

that's what government they say oh we

06:17

built you know we built roads and we've

06:18

built schools we built an army

06:20

you're going to pay us whether or not

06:21

you wanted those things or not and

06:23

that's that's exactly what the abc crew

06:24

are doing they're saying hey

06:25

we built full node software and you're

06:27

going to pay us whether you want to or

06:28

not you're going to pay for it right out

06:30

of the block reward

06:32

and so i i think if anybody's you know

06:34

akin to communism

06:36

that sort of thing this whole thing or

06:38

if anybody's a the real bit shavik

06:40

uh ifp supporters because they're doing

06:42

exactly what governments do they're

06:43

building something

06:44

and then charging people for whether or

06:46

not they want to pay for it or not and

06:48

whereas the people oppose the ifp

06:49

they're like hey

06:50

we just want bitcoin cash and bitcoin to

06:52

continue how it's always been

06:53

uh where the block rewards go to the

06:55

miners and then the miners decide what

06:56

to do with it from there

06:58

yeah so that's a great rundown of where

07:01

the situation is today

07:05

how did it get started sorry well that's

07:07

that's a good that's a good recap of

07:09

exactly where we are today for people

07:10

who have not been paying attention

07:12

and they understand exactly what's going

07:14

on right now

07:15

but this idea of the ifp is it's been

07:19

around for a little bit

07:20

longer an idea of repurposing the block

07:24

reward for

07:25

development which in a way donations

07:28

to developers is a very roundabout kind

07:31

of way of that because

07:33

people get the block road goes to miners

07:35

either the miners or

07:37

people who buy it from the miners end up

07:38

with it and then if they give it to

07:40

it's still kind of the same way except

07:41

it's just shortening that path

07:44

and so what was the first ifp

07:47

iteration of the idea um

07:50

i don't really know maybe it was dash to

07:52

be honest because it's existed on other

07:54

coins

07:55

for a long long time before it ever had

07:57

was you know being discussed

07:58

within bitcoin cash there's a lot of

08:00

we'll talk about bitcoin cash

08:01

specifically so what is the first

08:03

ifp idea on there so the first time i

08:06

became aware of it is there was some

08:07

talk about how

08:09

if you divert part of the coinbase

08:11

reward to this infrastructure funding

08:12

plan

08:13

it doesn't just divert from the bitcoin

08:16

cash miners it might it diverts from all

08:18

the shot 256 miners so btc bch

08:21

and bsv and because bch only has a

08:24

couple of percent

08:25

of the total global hash rate for

08:27

shash56 that means that bch miners

08:29

would only pay a a couple percent of the

08:31

total amount of the ifp stuff so

08:34

how does that even work how do you use

08:36

well

08:37

not to use or steel but hey steel how do

08:39

you siphon off money from

08:40

other chains yeah safe enough money from

08:44

other chains

08:45

like is that because the same miners are

08:47

mining the other chains

08:49

and then they would voluntarily donate

08:51

some of that stuff

08:52

yeah so i know voluntary and course is

08:55

kind of blurry in in

08:57

in all of this here but uh the way it

08:59

works is that the

09:00

all the people that have you know

09:01

whatever bit main mining hardware or

09:02

whatever

09:03

they can mine bsv bch or uh btc and they

09:07

can hop back and forth and most of them

09:09

do

09:09

and they hop to whatever one's the most

09:11

profitable at the moment and they mine

09:12

that one

09:13

and so if you make bitcoin cash less

09:16

profitable to mine by not giving the

09:18

the miners eight percent of the block

09:20

reward that means part of the hash rate

09:22

that normally would have been mining

09:24

bch will just switch to mining btc or

09:27

bsv

09:28

and so if it switches to mining btc that

09:30

means btc is now slightly more difficult

09:32

to mine than it otherwise would have

09:33

been

09:34

and ch is slightly easier to mine than

09:36

it would have otherwise been

09:38

uh so you're basically sucking the

09:39

revenue from the entire pool

09:41

of sha 5256 miners and so that part kind

09:44

of seemed interesting like hey

09:45

we can get you know btc miners to

09:47

subsidize the development of bitcoin

09:49

cash

09:50

uh but the big problem is who gets to

09:52

decide who gets that bitcoin cash like

09:55

should it be you know should be armory

09:56

should it be you know should be

09:58

bitcoin.com who arguably has done more

10:00

to spread bitcoin cash adoption than abc

10:02

or any other business out

10:04

there and i think it's kind of like a

10:05

lord of the rings scenario which i

10:07

haven't seen lord of the rings but i've

10:08

seen people talk about enough

10:10

i guess their magic ring and the magic

10:12

ring has magic powers but as soon as

10:13

someone gets the magic ring

10:15

they go crazy with it you have to

10:16

destroy the ring otherwise it's going to

10:18

make everybody fight

10:19

and i think that's that's exactly what's

10:21

happened with ifp here

10:22

is it's this really powerful tool that

10:24

could be used to pay for a lot of really

10:26

interesting things

10:27

the problem is there's no way to decide

10:28

what it gets to pay for or who gets to

10:30

you know get paid for what and it just

10:33

caught a whole bunch of infighting and a

10:34

giant fracturing of the community so

10:36

i think it just at this point seems to

10:38

be too dangerous of a tool for bitcoin

10:40

patch to

10:41

to have and uh if you're a big fan of

10:43

the block reward paying for developers

10:45

you know you know more about dash than

10:47

just about everybody out there i think

10:48

dash is you know willing and eager

10:50

uh to have that sort of thing and i you

10:51

know i bought dash years and years ago

10:53

i i have a number of masternodes uh

10:58

there's no problem with that but that

10:59

was in the social contract from day one

11:01

with dash

11:02

this has never been the social contract

11:04

with bitcoin cash or the bitcoin cash

11:06

ethos and now it's trying to be uh

11:08

imposed

11:08

after bitcoin cash been around for you

11:10

know over a decade

11:12

yeah so for a slight clarification on

11:13

the dash stick as much as i would have

11:15

loved for it to be in day one it wasn't

11:17

exactly

11:18

and the dash history and this is one of

11:20

those things where like i love digging

11:22

deep

11:22

into the history of things because you

11:24

see kind of how where things came from

11:26

and you know like for example when

11:29

bitcoin way back in the day had that

11:31

crazy inflation bug that

11:33

you know i forget what it was called but

11:34

like people don't even know that they

11:36

think it was perfect since day one

11:37

or there's some new evidence that

11:40

satoshi or whoever

11:41

may have what they call fast mind

11:43

bitcoin is in running an

11:44

optimized miner that he did not release

11:46

to the general public and stuff

11:48

and then like and i love things like

11:50

that because it damages the mythos

11:52

of like this is something holy

11:55

conscription of bitcoin

11:56

yeah yeah it damages the mythos of any

11:58

all this any

11:59

you get to sort of focus on what

12:01

actually matters what works

12:03

is it technology any good who cares who

12:04

founded it kind of thing

12:06

and so a dash started as x-coin which is

12:09

literally just like a

12:11

a litecoin fork that was using an x11

12:14

hashing algorithm that was kind of its

12:15

big innovation

12:16

and then there were some bugs and they

12:17

fixed that and then when it turned into

12:19

dark coin they

12:21

were kind of figuring out how to do a

12:23

more trustless coin join

12:25

and so they created masternodes for that

12:28

and they had a

12:28

there's a dash foundation for a while

12:30

and it didn't really work out and it was

12:31

until like

12:32

2015 like about a year in that

12:36

from my memory again people can fact

12:37

check this that they found a way to

12:39

do a uh a vote a masternode vote

12:43

for a block reward type thing and so

12:46

that's kind of how it came about so

12:47

there were

12:48

a few minors and stuff but it was a

12:50

minor chain right there was not a lot of

12:53

activity not a lot of attention and

12:56

people just i guess agreed it doesn't i

12:57

don't think it was very controversial

12:59

the whole treasury idea i think it was

13:00

pretty

13:02

pretty evolutionary and part of that is

13:04

that dash has had in its history

13:06

an evolutionary kind of mindset

13:09

of we're going to make necessary changes

13:13

to the core protocol to

13:15

we're going to tinker we're going to

13:16

make things a little bit better if we

13:17

can

13:18

whereas bitcoin is much more we got to

13:21

stay what we're we got to change as

13:23

little as possible

13:24

that we can get away with to just kind

13:26

of you know keep things going

13:28

and so that's the kind of interesting

13:31

point of view because

13:32

wasn't abc more or less the founding

13:36

client of bitcoin cash

13:37

and this is where it gets like really

13:39

murky because um

13:41

with most cryptocurrencies i think

13:43

there's like one main implementation the

13:45

developers

13:46

kind of do that and with the various

13:49

bitcoins

13:50

there's a few of them but at the end of

13:53

the day

13:53

it seems like what gets implemented

13:57

is what the dominant team kind of does

13:59

like bitcoin core

14:00

the bitcoin core team basically decides

14:03

what happens

14:04

there's competing clients out there but

14:06

it doesn't really matter

14:07

and so it seems like abc sort of is the

14:11

founding development team if that even

14:13

if if that could even

14:15

matter in a decentralized world right

14:16

the founding development team of bitcoin

14:18

cash

14:19

so if i can interject briefly there so

14:22

bitcoin abc was the name of the client

14:24

and abc stood for adjustable block size

14:26

cap

14:28

but one half of that founding team so

14:30

there's america and then there's another

14:32

anonymous person named free trader

14:34

uh free traders the guy that uh is

14:36

behind

14:37

bitcoin cash node and so one of the

14:39

founders

14:40

of bitcoin cash's original client

14:44

is on abc still and the other is now

14:46

bitcoin cash node

14:47

of the and of the miners that are out

14:50

there that are mining bitcoin cash

14:52

um about about 50 are signaling for

14:56

bitcoin cash node for bitcoin cash yeah

14:59

it was 52 i checked a few minutes ago

15:01

yeah i haven't checked yet this morning

15:02

but uh

15:03

zero percent as of yesterday uh we're

15:06

signaling for abc

15:08

and then the other 50 or other 48 aren't

15:10

signaling at all

15:11

so at that point abc is clearly not the

15:14

dominant

15:14

uh note even though they have been

15:17

historically

15:18

uh but that that changed pretty quickly

15:20

with such a controversial

15:22

uh change to to what bitcoin cash is

15:25

yeah so if we're going to go from like a

15:27

kind of governance perspective type

15:29

thing

15:30

uh if there's a lot of coins that have

15:32

some kind of a

15:34

agreed-upon block reward split and most

15:37

of them

15:37

the best place to agree upon that is

15:39

that the founding right it was like when

15:41

you create it so anyone who uses it

15:43

implicitly uh agrees with that kind of

15:46

those those conditions and so one could

15:49

like let's just say abc is the founding

15:52

chain

15:53

they are the founding client and you

15:55

know for what for whatever purposes

15:57

but then what if they had implemented an

16:00

ifp

16:01

with the split from btc obviously

16:04

probably way fewer people would have

16:06

actually jumped on board

16:08

but just from a who's right kind of a

16:12

standpoint if they had just jumped the

16:13

gun done it right away

16:15

everyone's like look if you're going to

16:16

use this new cash style of bitcoin

16:20

you you're part of it's going to go

16:21

defend from the developers so we don't

16:23

have this kind of

16:24

developer capture like we had before

16:26

that would have been like

16:28

would that have been fine in your book

16:29

maybe not the coin that you would have

16:31

most preferred to use but that would

16:32

have been

16:32

like ethically fine yeah i think that

16:35

would have been fine but it would have

16:36

made the coin

16:39

a bit less interesting to me i suppose

16:42

if they had done it

16:42

if they did that from day one of the btc

16:45

bch split that would have made it a lot

16:48

more palatable the

16:49

the bigger any project gets the harder

16:51

it is to make these changes like that so

16:53

you know bitcoin cash is the third

16:55

biggest cryptocurrency

16:56

that's proof of work right so yeah btc

16:59

ethereum and then bitcoin cash is number

17:01

three

17:02

with with dash i'm not sure where it is

17:03

there but you know maybe

17:05

30 or something so it's a lot easier to

17:07

still change things and even dash is big

17:09

right

17:09

so yeah the the smaller the smaller the

17:12

coin is the easier it is to make changes

17:14

bitcoin cash is the third biggest proof

17:15

of work coin in the world

17:17

uh i i think at this point it's not

17:20

something that you should be making

17:21

major changes to

17:23

the underlying economic code that made

17:25

you have this passionate community

17:26

because the

17:27

the tech and the community are both

17:29

incredibly important even if you have

17:30

really cool tech but you have a horrible

17:32

toxic community the tech's not going to

17:34

be used by anybody

17:35

uh and so you have to have both and like

17:37

america may be a fantastic developer but

17:40

uh

17:40

horrible community builder uh that's not

17:43

it's not

17:44

meant to be in a personal attack on

17:46

armory it's just supposed to be a

17:48

a statement of fact like you have to be

17:49

nice and friendly to people

17:51

and yeah homily have that he

17:54

his skills lie in other areas in the

17:56

world yes no matter which

17:58

which way if you consider the nicest

18:00

person in the world or the meanest

18:01

person in the world he does seem to be a

18:03

very

18:04

um kind of go for what he thinks is

18:06

right kind of a thing instead of get

18:08

group consensus

18:09

and see what the whole group thinks he

18:11

seems to be very very bold

18:13

which kind of comes from good we needed

18:15

to forget

18:16

i mean that created it right he just he

18:19

did exactly was like well i don't like

18:20

how you're doing stuff so i'm going to

18:21

do this

18:22

if you guys like what we're doing join

18:24

and it seems like

18:25

my understanding is that he was paid to

18:27

do that by uh

18:28

by jihan and some others as a

18:30

contingency plan for if they

18:32

wasn't allowed to scale so i i don't

18:34

know how much of that was

18:36

armory wanting to on his own versus

18:38

being paid to do that i i don't know

18:40

that's a question primary to to answer

18:42

yeah

18:43

i think that both would be my guess now

18:46

here's the thing where it gets

18:47

interesting uh the there's this council

18:50

now

18:51

this announced with abc or whatever

18:53

happens of course

18:54

a lot of this could be a moot point

18:56

because you could hit november it could

18:58

just be

18:58

there's a hugely lopsided hash rate

19:01

thing where it's like bitcoin cash note

19:02

is like 82 percent

19:04

and there's like now people are actively

19:06

signaling for abc and it's like at most

19:08

10 percent

19:09

it's just like at that point they might

19:11

have just given up or something

19:12

i think you're being optimistic for abc

19:15

to be honest well we'll see

19:16

again i thought that sv wouldn't be

19:19

anything and

19:20

here it still is right i think svg had

19:22

the better economic

19:24

message of like a stable protocol for

19:26

businesses to build on top of

19:27

uh that part is fantastic and abc has

19:29

been the exact opposite of that

19:31

uh and it's been a problem for

19:32

businesses like bitcoin.com trying to

19:34

build on top of abc

19:36

and all and so bitcoin.com is focused

19:38

mainly on bitcoin cash

19:39

if it's a problem for us it's a giant

19:41

headache for all these other businesses

19:42

that

19:43

aren't married to bitcoin cash so all

19:45

the you know the coin bases and the

19:46

different exchanges out there that just

19:48

you know bitcoin cash for them is just

19:50

one of dozens of coins

19:51

they don't want to deal with a bunch of

19:52

drama they don't want to deal with

19:53

forking they don't want to deal with

19:54

hard forks every six months

19:56

uh they want it's you know stable and

19:58

reliable and they can set it up and get

19:59

it working and then

20:00

and then for the most part hopefully

20:02

leave it alone and sv

20:04

bsv has done a great job at promoting

20:06

that message

20:07

uh i don't know if that in reality but

20:09

they've been done a good job of

20:10

promoting that message

20:11

that seems to be the one thing that

20:13

anyone who

20:14

subscribes to the bitcoin theory or who

20:18

likes not just the tech because it is

20:19

just it is just tech

20:21

but there's ideas behind it that keep

20:23

other coins calling themselves bitcoin

20:25

and you know trying to keep to that

20:28

thing it's

20:29

there's an attachment to like the common

20:32

thread in all this that kind of makes

20:34

abc the outlier is the no one controls

20:38

or runs it

20:39

kind of a thing as in the development

20:41

team

20:42

is um is kind of the sticking point that

20:46

like who gets to run it

20:47

now um the permissionless nature of

20:51

cryptocurrency is

20:52

anyone can use it and you can't say

20:54

anything with it but of course that can

20:56

be changed if someone's running it

20:58

can decide things so but

21:02

i have to say i in all these years of

21:05

you know being crypto and focusing on

21:07

this stuff it seems like

21:10

that's one thing that like satoshi got

21:12

almost everything right like

21:14

the economic incentives work pretty well

21:16

the network runs

21:17

you can actually figure out how to scale

21:19

unchained there's like there's a lot of

21:21

cool stuff you can do

21:23

the one thing that seems to all of the

21:25

children

21:26

seems to be affected by is this kind of

21:29

governance

21:30

issue of basically

21:33

no one can figure out who's supposed to

21:35

decide things

21:37

and that is beautiful in a certain way

21:40

and on the other hand clearly someone

21:43

seems

21:44

some things need to be decided and then

21:46

there's just drama and fighting and

21:48

as i put in a pithy tweet a couple days

21:51

ago

21:52

it's either centralized or it forks or

21:54

you have governance

21:55

it's like the three things it's either

21:57

centralized

21:59

and therefore you know who makes the

22:00

decisions you don't know so therefore

22:03

people disagree and fork or it's some

22:06

kind of decentralized but you can

22:08

actually

22:08

have a mechanism for deciding without

22:10

forking have there been any

22:12

any forks or offshoots from dash after

22:14

the masternodes existed and that sort of

22:16

thing or

22:16

not as far as i know there's been

22:18

nothing um

22:19

way like a coup a year or so ago maybe

22:22

there was a

22:23

a chain split on called safe but that

22:26

was a

22:27

chinese knockoff purely profit thing

22:29

that people were just trying to create a

22:31

little airdrop thing like it wasn't

22:32

and almost no one in dash even knows

22:34

about this if you ask them like what is

22:36

safe

22:36

i don't know and so it just there are

22:40

fights there are arguments but those

22:43

things

22:43

collide in it they collide in a

22:47

situation and then there is a

22:49

resolution at some point and then it's

22:51

over

22:52

and i hate to change the subject too

22:53

much but from your fingers there you

22:55

must have been doing some jiu-jitsu

22:56

recently

22:57

yes is a dislocated pinky and it sucks

23:00

but tape is like a miracle though is it

23:02

not so

23:03

yeah it allows you to keep on you know

23:05

doing the same inadvisable

23:06

to your health decisions but yeah that's

23:09

that's what happens

23:10

now this wrist got wrist locked so it's

23:11

all it's it's a little

23:13

challenging right now but it'll it'll be

23:15

good forward wrist locks

23:17

yeah yes of course but to go so go back

23:20

to the

23:20

the governance idea type thing it um it

23:23

seems like

23:25

there is a need for someone to decide

23:27

here here's my

23:28

what i call crypto governance and

23:30

development right now

23:31

i call it the tragedy commons because

23:34

the system is extremely well designed as

23:37

far as

23:38

minor economic incentives who secures

23:40

the network who runs it

23:42

who profits from the fees who does all

23:45

this kind of stuff but the development

23:46

thing is kind of like

23:48

well we'll people will develop i guess i

23:51

don't know what do you think of that

23:52

concept

23:54

i think it's an experiment in motion

23:56

right

23:57

we have a better understanding of what

24:00

what's working and what's not and what's

24:01

happening and what's not so but uh

24:04

trial trial by era i guess yeah

24:07

so for example um when you think about

24:11

you know bitcoin had all this momentum

24:12

behind it and then

24:14

the bitcoin core team uh you know stuff

24:18

happened

24:19

it's for you know to summarize a lot of

24:21

stuff over the years and

24:23

stuff happened but uh it's so first off

24:26

the

24:26

organization if you could even call it

24:28

an organization of bitcoin core

24:31

was there for a long time is still

24:34

there very different people

24:37

you know who within bitcoin core right

24:40

because he used to have like

24:42

and mike hearn and some others uh jeff

24:45

garzik and then

24:46

other people that came to the project

24:47

later didn't manage to kick those people

24:50

out of bitcoin core yet still keep the

24:52

bitcoin core name for themselves and

24:53

then

24:54

morph bitcoin into a project that wasn't

24:56

what anybody signed up for

24:58

pre pre-2013 or 20 even 2015.

25:01

so yes and so the thing with

25:05

the the bitcoin core kind of thing it

25:07

seems like

25:08

like who holds the power is basically

25:10

decided by

25:11

github access it sounds like that's the

25:14

top thing

25:15

and so he who controls the github

25:17

controls the rules and so it seems like

25:20

whatever github's rules are for who has

25:23

access who can kick

25:24

other people off of having access

25:27

the repository control seems to be the

25:29

central point of

25:31

failure in bitcoin's governance system

25:33

in that case

25:34

because whoever does that you know kind

25:36

of rules and then

25:37

a s competing client

25:41

would have to build i guess you know

25:42

separate repository and you have to

25:44

actually get miners to

25:46

to jump on board now it seems like

25:49

miners are a passive actor more than

25:52

active in some cases they'd be very

25:54

active some cases they're like

25:56

this they you know fork off or they

25:58

might but it seems like there's rare

26:00

cases are they active i think you're

26:01

right that they're mostly

26:03

so and it's in obviously and they don't

26:06

fund development directly like most

26:08

mining pools the idea

26:10

of like the the what do we call the

26:12

paleo ifp

26:14

of let's just have mining pools give a

26:16

proportion of their stuff

26:18

kind of voluntarily to development

26:20

doesn't seem to have

26:22

taken root so it seems like you're

26:24

asking

26:25

people to donate for development and

26:28

like a foundation or something like that

26:30

that seems to be kind of the model

26:31

of the main bitcoins forks is that kind

26:34

of

26:34

it yeah i think it's been donations from

26:38

the businesses

26:39

in the ecosystem so like myself you know

26:41

i donated a bunch of money to bitcoin

26:43

core

26:44

back in the day i think mount docs gave

26:46

them money a number of

26:47

other businesses gave the money as well

26:49

and then more recently in bitcoin cash

26:50

days you know bitcoin.com

26:52

or myself have given a lot of money to

26:54

abc to bitcoin unlimited to the

26:56

be cash from from first i o their fork

26:59

of v coin for bitcoin cash

27:00

uh and a number of other things out out

27:02

there as well

27:03

um and there were just a bunch of flip

27:06

starters recently to fund bitcoin cash

27:08

development i think somewhere

27:09

you know close to a million dollars in

27:11

flip starters were recently donated to

27:12

various bitcoin cash infrastructure

27:14

funding plans and

27:15

until very recently the only flip

27:18

starter for full node implementations

27:19

that didn't get funded via flip starter

27:21

to their full amount they're asking was

27:23

abc

27:24

and i think it's not because the quality

27:26

of their work

27:28

isn't pretty good i think it's the

27:29

attitude that you go in

27:31

to it with right if you want people to

27:33

collaborate with you or to donate money

27:34

uh to you

27:35

you have to have a good attitude to go

27:37

with it and if you have a bad attitude

27:39

people aren't going to want to

27:39

collaborate with you on anything

27:41

and uh i'm not happy to say it but i

27:45

feel like

27:46

especially now with the ifp things going

27:47

on the attitude from some of these abc

27:50

guys and you know the

27:52

the biggest one is micro president uh

27:55

which is his real name shema chancellor

27:57

like i feel like that guy

27:58

gone off the deep end with these memes

28:00

attacking everybody and that's not the

28:02

way you know adult

28:03

software engineers trying to build a

28:05

protocol to enable peer-to-peer cash for

28:07

the entire world to literally change the

28:09

course of human history

28:10

that's not how those people should be

28:12

acting and it makes it

28:14

isn't the businessman in the space

28:16

they're you know building businesses and

28:17

trying to build the tools to enable that

28:19

we're not going to want to give money to

28:20

an organization that's busy trolling

28:22

with a bunch of stupid memes on on you

28:24

know twitter and reddit

28:25

every day uh that's that's juvenile

28:28

junior high school stuff that's not the

28:29

stuff that should be done by people that

28:30

are trying to build

28:31

the the platform to change the world for

28:33

the better so we get into

28:35

like who funds development and how does

28:37

it get funded and that seems to be a

28:38

little bit mixed

28:39

there's some positive examples where you

28:41

have a lot of donations that really go

28:43

and it works a bunch of major companies

28:45

step forward

28:46

and at the same time i've seen plenty of

28:48

people complaining all over

28:50

social media over the last several years

28:52

of any number of projects

28:54

oh we're broke there's no no donations

28:56

including bitcoin core very recently

28:58

like in the last several months i've

29:00

seen some people saying

29:01

there's not enough for that of course

29:03

charlie lee's always complaining or his

29:04

his people are always complaining for

29:06

litecoin there's always

29:08

there's a it isn't it can be done it's

29:10

not necessarily guaranteed

29:12

but it can be done in that might be a

29:14

scale thing like more businesses and

29:16

stuff

29:16

working on it could then you know

29:19

bring more awareness into like a scale

29:21

and leadership slash inertia kind of a

29:23

thing

29:24

it doesn't come with bitcoin but you can

29:27

build it on top of bitcoin and it does

29:28

can work relatively harmoniously as far

29:30

as just the funding

29:31

is that are we agreeing on that

29:33

absolutely the bigger the ecosystem the

29:35

more funding there will be for all these

29:36

projects and

29:37

and people need to also keep in mind

29:39

like donations yeah okay they're nice

29:42

sometimes you can get some money from

29:43

that the real way to build to make a big

29:45

change in the world is to build a

29:47

profitable business that earns money

29:49

right amazon

29:50

have changed the you know the entire

29:52

world supply chain

29:54

not by being a organization to ask for

29:56

donations like they say hey

29:58

donate us money and we're going to try

29:59

and build you know delivery within 24

30:02

hours of everything

30:03

no they built a business they charged

30:04

their customers and they earned money

30:06

the reason bitcoin.com has so much money

30:08

to donate to different things and

30:09

different developers

30:10

is because we're a business that earns

30:12

money so if you want to like

30:14

move the needle in the world build a

30:16

business that earns money and you'll be

30:17

able to do that

30:18

all more effectively than building a

30:20

charity that begs for money all the time

30:22

yeah and that's where it gets

30:24

complicated because

30:25

uh you could say obviously businesses

30:28

running on a protocol are businesses

30:30

that's

30:30

very self-explanatory miners are a

30:33

business of sort because they provide a

30:34

good or service

30:36

and they receive compensation for that

30:38

and developers

30:40

is where it gets tricky because if you

30:42

are a hired by a company or something

30:43

like that sure you make money

30:45

if you're building a protocol that

30:46

everyone uses not for free but

30:49

for free to you there's there's no

30:52

direct way of

30:53

benefiting unless a company hires you or

30:56

sponsors you for deal now sponsorship is

30:58

more of a

30:58

charity type of a thing or a i i would

31:01

even agree so like let's let's take

31:02

bitcoin.com and myself for example right

31:05

uh with bitcoin cash i hold plenty of

31:07

bitcoin cash or even dash for example i

31:09

hold plenty of that

31:10

it would be in my economic interest not

31:13

for charity it would be my economic

31:14

interest

31:15

to pay developers uh to make bitcoin

31:18

cash's protocol more useful or make

31:19

dash's protocol more useful or build the

31:21

tools to enable

31:22

more commerce to happen with dash or

31:24

bitcoin cash or whatever

31:25

and so like that's a very clear economic

31:27

incentive because

31:28

you know if if i have let's say i have

31:30

100 bitcoin cash right

31:32

and i donate 10 of the bitcoin cash that

31:34

i have

31:35

to pay a developer to do whatever uh but

31:37

the price goes up

31:38

uh of my remaining bitcoin cash by more

31:40

than 10

31:42

i've made a profit so even though i have

31:43

a smaller absolute number of bitcoin

31:45

cash

31:46

the total value of that bitcoin cash is

31:47

higher so like uh

31:49

derrick mcgill said it exactly right in

31:51

a tweet a while back he said like the

31:52

lack of developer

31:54

funding uh in bitcoin cash it isn't it

31:57

isn't a market failure it's a market

31:59

signal

32:00

and so for example from bitcoin.com like

32:01

we have a substantial budget every

32:03

single month that we spend on all sorts

32:04

of things

32:05

we could devote a bigger part of that to

32:07

pay you know protocol developers

32:09

but in our economic opinion with all the

32:11

moving pieces we can see in the world

32:13

that's not the best use of our money our

32:15

the best use for our money is spent on

32:16

building

32:17

other tools inside the bitcoin cash

32:19

ecosystem so imagine if we still had the

32:21

same bitcoin.com wallet from

32:22

a year or two ago it's not anywhere near

32:25

as good as the one that we have today

32:26

but we spent a lot of money to build the

32:28

one that we have today

32:29

that money could have been given to abc

32:31

or somebody else to do protocol

32:32

development work

32:33

and let's say they did that but

32:34

bitcoin.com still has a crappy wallet

32:37

i don't think bitcoin cash would be in

32:38

as good of a position uh today

32:40

uh if we had done that rather than just

32:42

built focused on building our wallets so

32:44

the fact that companies like bitcoin.com

32:46

and others aren't donating money to the

32:48

protocol developers

32:49

that's market feedback not a market

32:51

failure

32:53

and i think that's an important concept

32:54

to understand and for the people that

32:56

say okay you're not donating well we're

32:57

just gonna plain take it

32:58

uh that that that drives a wedge in the

33:02

community and you're gonna destroy the

33:04

community even if you improve the tech

33:05

and if

33:06

let's say they managed to really improve

33:07

the tech but you've destroyed the

33:08

community in the process

33:11

congratulations you've you've broken

33:14

bitcoin cash

33:15

now that's the that's it that's the

33:18

really that's the point where you know

33:20

the rubber hits the road because

33:22

um there was also plenty of

33:25

company funding on development in

33:27

bitcoin core

33:28

a lot of it from a fantastic company

33:30

named blockstream

33:31

which donated to that funded development

33:35

that increased bitcoin's usefulness

33:38

for their economic purposes and

33:42

unfortunately those economic purposes

33:44

were not in the economic interest of

33:46

the rest of the of the world let's be

33:50

let's be pretty honest probably not the

33:51

rest of the world but it was in their

33:53

interests

33:54

and since they were paying the bills

33:55

they kind of got to decide so there's

33:57

nothing wrong with the funding it's just

33:59

what are the strings attached with the

34:00

funding

34:01

and so how do we kind of get to decide

34:07

how that works because it's not a

34:08

completely free market system here

34:10

it the free market system is all the

34:12

cryptocurrencies out there if you don't

34:13

like what this one's doing go to a

34:15

different one

34:16

that's a free market but as far as in

34:18

the

34:19

on the one ecosystem of one chain

34:22

that's not a free market because only

34:24

one person only one

34:25

path forward can exist developmentally

34:28

really i mean there can be

34:29

competing but at some point you gotta

34:31

resolve and you gotta all go with one

34:33

and

34:34

how do you actually decide that the one

34:37

this

34:37

decision mechanism seems to be the

34:39

miners but the miners seem to

34:42

not be interested in making decisions

34:44

for the most part

34:45

and so that might be the the failure of

34:48

the nakamoto system and i would say

34:50

failure like a

34:51

rude mean kind of a way but that could

34:53

be the one area of land for

34:56

yeah and i have to say with dash

34:58

governance

34:59

where it's an explicit vote and it's

35:01

very easy to vote voter participation is

35:03

not always hugely high either

35:05

and even though in my opinion it's a

35:06

much better system that you have a lot

35:09

more

35:09

easier consensus for that it's not like

35:11

it's it's perfect so

35:13

if if masternodes don't always vote then

35:16

how can you expect minors to vote so

35:19

what do you think you would change in

35:20

the system to

35:22

allow because either you have to

35:26

find a different governance mechanism

35:27

for deciding without splitting

35:29

without completely splitting or you have

35:32

to

35:33

find a way to get miners incentivized

35:36

in acting and like doing things

35:39

yeah that's the hard question what would

35:40

i change to make it better i

35:43

i don't really know um

35:46

i think kind of what we have right now

35:48

though people are free to

35:50

to argue about it and fork away if you

35:52

don't agree with what the

35:53

the main chain is doing and so that was

35:55

the origin of bitcoin cash

35:57

uh that was the origin of bsv uh and

36:00

that

36:00

may very well be the origin of the new

36:02

abc coin whatever it winds up being

36:04

called like if you don't agree with what

36:05

the main chain is doing

36:07

uh fork away and and try and do

36:09

something better that works better and

36:10

and who knows maybe maybe the ifp

36:12

version that forks away from from

36:14

bitcoin cash

36:15

maybe they'll build all sorts of useful

36:17

tech and somehow me maybe they'll rally

36:19

the community behind them and get the

36:20

adoption

36:21

from the you know the bit pays and the

36:22

go cryptos and maybe even bitcoin.com um

36:26

but i think that's really really

36:27

unlikely

36:28

uh the incumbent has such uh a powerful

36:31

position there

36:32

and it's so clear though in the current

36:34

circumstance bitcoin cash is the

36:36

incumbent and abc is working away from

36:38

bitcoin cash

36:40

yeah which is the second second thing

36:43

that's happened

36:43

and that's where we start to get to like

36:46

we're trying to build the most efficient

36:47

model possible

36:49

and bitcoin cash has been

36:52

in what would this be like what the

36:55

third fork of three years or something

36:57

like 2017 was split from btc and then

37:00

about a year later or so is split off to

37:03

sv

37:04

and then it's like your yearly your

37:06

yearly schedule chain split kind of

37:08

thing

37:08

it just keeps on splitting and i can't

37:10

imagine that's productive right i can't

37:12

imagine it's helping bitcoin cash become

37:15

stronger and more useful and have the

37:18

community resources diverted towards

37:19

good things

37:20

i think it's been disastrous yeah i

37:22

think it's been absolutely disastrous

37:24

uh and that's why i'm really sympathetic

37:27

to the the mantra

37:28

uh there of build a stable protocol for

37:31

others to build on top of

37:32

and uh i hope and i would like to see

37:34

the the

37:36

pace of these regularly scheduled hard

37:37

forks to be slowed down or

37:39

or extended or somehow uh not

37:43

forced to happen every single six months

37:45

because that causes fighting

37:46

as to what's going to be in the hard

37:48

fork and here we are again

37:50

with uh a part of the community

37:51

disagreeing with what should be in that

37:53

hard fork

37:54

and uh yeah perhaps uh you know

37:55

splitting away from bitcoin cash so but

37:57

uh

37:59

at the other hand from a business

38:00

perspective right i'll make sure i have

38:02

all my private keys for my coins at the

38:03

time of the fork

38:05

and then i can sell my you know airdrop

38:06

for more bitcoin cash or more dash or or

38:09

whatever else i want to sell it for

38:10

or hold it if that's what i want to do

38:12

uh but uh

38:13

you have to you have to go with what the

38:16

market conditions are you can't

38:19

wish your way into you know a perfect

38:21

world now this is an interesting

38:24

uh thing to look at because bitcoin sv

38:27

i have not been a fan of for most of its

38:29

existence there's some endearing tools

38:31

built on it like twitch i believe you

38:33

joined twitch recently let's just

38:35

is that is that correct okay good so it

38:37

is you a lot of people are saying it

38:38

wasn't

38:40

yes so there's a lot of interesting

38:43

tools being built on it

38:44

and as you've mentioned a lot of bsv

38:46

type lines

38:47

as far as stable protocol that like

38:50

business built on no drama that kind of

38:52

stuff

38:53

now of course the devil in the details

38:54

with bsv

38:57

their words to be clear too so well yeah

39:00

but the devil of details is as i said

39:03

you know for

39:04

it centralized and it seems like

39:07

so first off they do have core protocol

39:10

development right like isn't it the

39:11

shatters fellow or i don't know if

39:13

there's others but

39:14

and he is on somebody's payroll and

39:16

whoever's payroll whoever is paying him

39:19

decides what gets changed which in this

39:21

case is nothing but

39:22

could be in the future so if i can put

39:25

on my conspiracy theory

39:26

yes and i'm not super knowledgeable when

39:29

it comes to bsv stuff because i haven't

39:31

been following it closely

39:32

but uh craig just decided to sue me

39:34

again a couple of days ago

39:36

so he lost the last time and had to pay

39:38

me six figures apparently

39:40

he wants to pay me even more money when

39:41

he loses again here

39:44

the best defense you know against libel

39:46

is that it's the truth

39:47

uh yes um but the the the conspiracy

39:51

theory hat here is

39:52

is and i don't know if if calvin

39:55

believes him

39:56

genuinely or if he's just pretending to

39:57

believe him because it's convenient for

39:59

a business perspective but what it seems

40:00

like is happening here with their

40:01

lawsuit

40:02

is they're going to try and say that

40:03

okay the court has even ruled

40:05

that craig is satoshi and he has to pay

40:07

for the climate estate part of the

40:09

satoshi coins

40:10

and because calvin has such a big

40:12

percent of the hash rate on bsv

40:14

uh what it looks like they're gonna do

40:15

and you can see calvin even said that

40:16

they're gonna do it uh

40:17

on twitter recently as well they're

40:19

gonna fork they're gonna hard fork bsv

40:22

again to give

40:23

craig all the satoshi coins on the bsv

40:26

chain so they can use those to pay the

40:28

climate state so craig is going to hard

40:30

fork bsv to get a million around a

40:32

million bsv coins

40:33

and if the what the price of bsv coins

40:35

now are what like 200 bucks that's 200

40:37

million

40:38

dollars worth of bsv uh there oh my

40:41

hard fork are we speaking of a chain

40:42

split are we speaking of

40:44

just an upgrade yeah so it depends on

40:47

what the rest of the bsv community does

40:49

and i feel like there's two groups

40:50

within the bsv community

40:52

there's the right kool-aid breakers that

40:54

believe everything he says and

40:56

oh the bonded crew he promised for years

40:58

was going to show up that didn't show up

40:59

well that's you know

41:00

whatever we're going to forget about

41:01

that because that was last week and all

41:03

the other broken lies and broken

41:04

promises well forget about it chris

41:06

we're gonna we're gonna continue to

41:08

worship him you know with blind faith

41:10

and then there's the other ones that are

41:11

just like craig's

41:13

i don't want to get sued for the full

41:14

time but craig is craig

41:17

but cool technology that we want to

41:19

build cool things on and we're just

41:20

going to ignore craig and calvin and

41:21

their

41:22

idi idiocracy um

41:25

yeah so that's kind of how i view it

41:28

there and it's the question is craig

41:29

does calvin have enough hash rate to

41:31

to push that hard fork update to give

41:34

craig all the bsv satoshi coins

41:36

and the rest of the community won't be

41:37

able to muster enough hash rate to

41:38

prevent that from happening

41:40

uh and i i don't know i'm not deep

41:41

enough in bsv to have much of an opinion

41:43

on that at all

41:44

yeah so it's clearly someone is at the

41:47

top trying to

41:48

use a chain for personal gain and other

41:51

people on the chain

41:53

will see if they agree or if they will

41:55

be willing to participate or whatever

41:57

but also one thing i've noticed is

41:58

almost every single

42:00

interesting project i think maybe twitch

42:02

is the outlier but i haven't

42:04

again i'm not into people's financial

42:05

business but

42:07

how heavily rely on end chain patents

42:10

and so

42:11

yeah and a lot of software esv is closed

42:14

source

42:15

at this point not closed and the people

42:17

can't see the code but closed

42:19

in the sense that people are not allowed

42:20

to reuse the code and that's kind of

42:22

like the whole ethos of this entire

42:23

cryptocurrency ecosystem is that

42:25

it's open source take the code and make

42:27

something even better with it and bsv

42:29

is closed uh close source in that

42:31

regards

42:32

yeah so it seems like there ha there's

42:35

like the big open question of like how

42:36

do you decide

42:37

who just how do you decide who decides

42:40

the the main things

42:41

where miners are the one easy answer for

42:44

a non

42:44

like let's say non-staked or

42:46

non-mastered type coin

42:48

but miners don't seem to really seem to

42:50

be passive

42:51

but now here's another here's a color a

42:53

couple examples that i would consider

42:54

positive examples

42:56

of what one would call protocol

42:59

decentralization

43:00

development centralization since birth

43:03

so let's

43:03

let's take z cash right uh z cash

43:07

was clearly a company electric coin

43:09

company

43:10

was created to create a privacy-focused

43:14

cryptocurrency

43:15

and do all kinds of experiments and

43:17

figure out what really works well and is

43:18

also

43:19

let people use the chain it's a public

43:20

chain anyone can use it

43:22

and just they get twenty percent of the

43:25

blockboard for a while and

43:26

i know they had their own little like

43:28

re-upping conundrum

43:30

relatively recently which i didn't

43:31

follow too closely but it seems like

43:33

something was agreed upon

43:35

and that seems like you just

43:38

accepted the electric coin company is

43:39

going to build everything

43:41

and if they don't do well the price goes

43:44

down and their profits go down

43:46

if they do well it goes up and then

43:48

there's the other i the other

43:50

one is library which had i believe

43:52

something like a 50 percent pre-mine

43:54

and even though it's a decentralized

43:56

proof-of-work coin the library

43:58

incorporated

43:58

has this big pot of the money that

44:00

they're just sitting on and developing

44:02

and doing an amazing job so far it seems

44:04

and uh building a protocol anyone can

44:06

kind of use and

44:08

i believe they might have given a chunk

44:10

of that away to something called the

44:11

library foundation and as soon as i saw

44:13

a library foundation i started seeing

44:15

rumors of oh this guy got banned from

44:17

the discord oh this

44:18

you know fighting over money that no one

44:21

knows

44:21

who they control but so in the case of

44:23

library zcash they seem to be building

44:25

great products that anyone can use that

44:29

are completely open source and can be

44:30

copied and things like that

44:32

but one team controls everything as far

44:34

as development and it seems to kind of

44:36

because it's accepted sort of work out

44:38

for now

44:39

do you what do you think of that idea of

44:42

that

44:42

kind of philosophy of development

44:46

yeah it's one thing when it's clear from

44:48

the beginning uh i think when it's

44:50

changed you know

44:51

more than a decade in yeah you make a

44:53

change that major you know a decade in

44:56

i don't think and it's a contentious

44:59

split

44:59

i don't think the one making that super

45:01

major contentious chain

45:02

uh change has the right the name anymore

45:06

at that point uh whereas with you know z

45:07

cash is pretty clear and a lot of people

45:10

don't realize this really early on there

45:11

was a fork of z cash

45:13

that didn't have the classic called z

45:16

classic and so z cash has this

45:18

infrastructure fund z

45:20

classic doesn't z cash has done

45:22

significantly better than z classic

45:24

and so maybe that's an example of how

45:27

coins with the infrastructure funding

45:28

can do better

45:30

but you als but i also think part of it

45:32

is that you don't have this

45:35

you know great community around z

45:37

classic whereas you do have a pretty

45:38

strong

45:38

z cash community i think that is the

45:41

reason that z

45:43

cash has done better than z classic

45:44

because of the ifp

45:46

equivalent there or is it because of the

45:47

stronger community and uh

45:49

and certainly the stronger community

45:51

played a role in it not how much did the

45:52

ifp

45:53

play or the the funding for probably

45:55

some as well

45:56

uh but the thing that that appears makes

45:58

me so worried about the

46:00

ifp on bitcoin cash is it'll destroy the

46:02

community

46:03

and uh i think the community is just as

46:06

important if not more important than

46:08

any money to pay for for the developers

46:10

there to to work on the protocol

46:13

yeah now that's um so

46:16

the idea of an ifp type thing

46:19

from day one i mean obviously the

46:20

contention is you're coming in

46:23

halfway through the agreement or

46:25

whatever point of the way through the

46:27

agreement and you're just saying here's

46:28

it's gonna be completely different it's

46:30

like well i never agreed to this

46:32

but say it was just hey i'm starting

46:34

like

46:35

you get the time machine you go back and

46:37

get to whisper in satoshi's ears he's

46:39

starting this whole thing and

46:40

you just get to tell them like look

46:42

things are awesome

46:44

but some crazy things happen you know

46:46

stuff happened right

46:47

but stuff happened along the way uh

46:50

why don't you you know introduce a one

46:53

percent ifp

46:55

for you know whatever in the beginning

46:57

obviously you know that is kind of how

46:59

points started right because the coins

47:00

were basically free in the beginning

47:02

and then people had to go out there and

47:03

do the work to make the coins have value

47:05

by making the coins be useful in

47:07

commerce

47:08

and so that way anybody that had bitcoin

47:10

early on then becomes financially

47:11

incentivized

47:12

to make them more useful for more people

47:14

around the world in more use cases

47:16

uh and so now you know i'm not sure

47:19

exactly when

47:19

some of these abc people got involved um

47:22

but if you look at it there are plenty

47:24

of people early on in the early days

47:25

that had

47:26

cheap bitcoins that were you know

47:27

motivated to to help uh

47:29

make them more useful to the world and

47:31

fund those sorts of things

47:33

yeah so would you think that it's a good

47:36

idea to have the semi-centralized

47:38

development team of a completely

47:41

decentralized protocol

47:43

idea obviously it's working right now in

47:45

some cases but

47:46

do you think that would be a good idea

47:48

for say bitcoin to have started with

47:50

yeah i don't know um i think it's worth

47:53

a try and that's why it's cool that

47:54

there's so many different

47:55

cryptocurrencies now people can try

47:57

every different combination of of you

47:59

know infrastructure funding and

48:00

community building and this and that

48:02

and uh eventually we'll figure out which

48:04

ones work work the best so i think it's

48:06

definitely worth trying

48:08

uh i don't think it's worth pivoting 10

48:10

years in on an existing uh

48:12

existing coin yeah and so it

48:15

this brings back to now we're going to

48:18

be a more established governance systems

48:20

and then possibly some

48:22

cool ideas for the future but because i

48:25

don't think that

48:26

the history book is written on crypto

48:28

and what works and what doesn't i think

48:29

we have like hundreds of years of

48:31

completely different systems ahead of us

48:33

but so for example

48:35

the dash system is pretty efficient at

48:38

resolving differences like when there's

48:41

a big disagreement like should we

48:43

on chain scale yes or no this way should

48:46

we adopt which

48:48

new logo should we adopt these are ones

48:50

let's do this one

48:51

that seems to be pretty efficient on

48:52

doing that and pretty efficient at

48:54

getting funding for

48:55

the one main development team and where

48:58

it becomes

48:59

a little bit less efficient what i've

49:01

you know my personal opinion over the

49:03

years watching is

49:04

when you start funding other ecosystem

49:07

projects

49:08

and there be just because whenever

49:10

you're doing some kind of a

49:12

subsidy type of a thing like a grant

49:14

system or you know you have a you're

49:16

paid from a pot of money type of thing

49:18

you kind of sever the economic

49:20

incentives of a free market

49:22

and i've noticed a inefficiency because

49:24

of this and it's not you know

49:27

with the development team of obviously

49:30

that's the big market mover

49:32

and people you know change the price

49:34

changes more what the development team

49:35

does

49:36

rather than anything else that's funded

49:37

by the ecosystem now

49:39

uh re so one issue was whatever new

49:43

dash coin coins created

49:46

are for the treasury if they don't get

49:48

issued to something they don't get

49:50

created at all

49:51

and of course based on scarcity that

49:53

means if you don't spend the whole

49:54

treasury

49:55

your funds are going to be your money as

49:57

an investor or worth more

49:59

but there hasn't been an economic signal

50:02

to connect those two

50:03

so a lot of people a lot of masterminds

50:05

have you know voted in i guess an

50:07

economically illiterate way and just try

50:09

to use up

50:09

all the treasury doesn't matter where it

50:12

goes to just because

50:13

we have free money but they're starting

50:16

to change the last few cycles have not

50:18

been completely spent they've left some

50:19

on the table

50:20

but they're um they're experimenting

50:22

with a

50:24

protocol change they would basically

50:26

make any funds not created

50:29

for the still get created but sent to

50:31

minors masternodes

50:32

so you actually get to see what you'd

50:34

save if you don't do

50:36

and i think that will really change

50:38

things on that sense that sounds

50:40

great yeah yes and then we're going to

50:43

uh i don't know too much about d cred

50:45

and that's one project i really have to

50:46

do a

50:47

deep dive on but i do know that they

50:49

have some sort of a staked governance

50:51

voting system and a treasury

50:53

but also i think that the that vote

50:57

votes on protocol changes as well and

51:00

as sort of a and not just a hey if

51:03

someone decides to ask a question we get

51:05

to decide

51:06

but every time there's like a hard fork

51:08

or whatever time there's a new thing at

51:10

you it's not just nakamoto consensus the

51:12

stakeholders have to actually

51:14

vote and okay the thing whereas with

51:16

dash right now you know the developers

51:18

create it they put out the code and the

51:20

miners usually choose to implement it

51:22

and they could

51:23

hard fork if they wanted to they just

51:24

tend to not so that's another

51:26

interesting idea

51:28

but here's the thing i was kind of

51:29

thinking because you still are trusting

51:31

the inefficiency of a development team

51:33

you still are trusting one team one

51:36

group of people one company as it were

51:38

and all the people in it is efficiently

51:40

enough run and

51:42

there is a certain level of inefficiency

51:44

they'd have to sync to

51:46

before the network would vote to revoke

51:48

their contract and add it to a new

51:51

new development team testing that limit

51:54

right now

51:54

yes well they don't have i mean the

51:57

council thing

51:58

uh i'll interject in a little bit about

52:01

the council things that's interesting

52:03

but here's an idea right what if

52:07

you could create some sort of a

52:08

decentralized github

52:10

type of a thing and

52:13

basically you would try you could track

52:16

developer

52:18

activity and basically

52:21

transaction fees there's a small split

52:25

of that would go to

52:26

developers based on their activity in

52:29

success or something like that

52:30

obviously it's a very rough idea yeah

52:32

you're the success right that's the hard

52:34

part

52:34

so yes success means like

52:37

the final product different things to

52:39

different people as well though

52:41

yeah yeah right luke junior's definition

52:43

success is going to be totally different

52:45

than you know gavin and jerusalem's

52:46

so yes but basically if you could track

52:49

uh

52:50

whatever whatever implementation gets

52:52

created whoever contributed

52:54

the most to that implementation gets a

52:57

higher percentage

52:58

of whatever and so like for example like

53:00

a one or two commit

53:02

developer doesn't really get a bunch

53:03

again this is considering this is this

53:05

implementation got

53:06

but through it sounds like a fantastic

53:08

way to generate more

53:09

infighting uh all day my commits more

53:12

important than your commit and i

53:14

committed more well your commits weren't

53:15

people was my fewer commits and people

53:17

are going to spend all day arguing

53:18

rather than building things and so i

53:20

think the profit

53:21

mechanism of the market by building

53:23

tools where people actually are

53:24

engaging in commerce to earn money i

53:26

think that's the the best way to figure

53:28

all this out and and uh

53:30

speaking of that i need to get back to

53:31

my normal work pretty soon there but uh

53:33

i'd be happy

53:34

you know part two of this again at some

53:35

point in the future yes do you have like

53:37

two minutes to discuss the council so

53:39

ifp

53:41

and now obviously on its own as abc is

53:44

the

53:45

lord regent developer team of of

53:48

whatever coin they end up

53:49

at the top of lord of the rings uh

53:52

person your character no just i'm saying

53:55

it's like they're they're

53:56

the kings of whatever chain they're on

53:58

now

53:59

they've mentioned something about it

54:02

creating like a governance board type

54:03

thing

54:04

where major mining pools and

54:08

major stakeholders would come and have a

54:10

say on what happens to that money is in

54:12

first uh it's going straight to abc so

54:14

they don't ha at that point they don't

54:16

have to

54:17

share it at all but now they're saying

54:20

we get we'll invite people to a council

54:22

and we will let them based on their

54:25

importance in the ecosystem that is

54:26

cryptographically proven by mining

54:28

whatever we will let them decide what

54:30

happens to that money

54:32

yeah i think i think this seems more

54:34

like a bribe to the miners and if you

54:35

look at it like we just talked about

54:36

earlier

54:37

the miners not wanted this authority or

54:40

this this uh

54:41

they just want to mine their coins and

54:42

be left alone uh they don't want

54:44

responsibility of governance here uh and

54:47

so if anything it seems like it's just a

54:49

way to try and bribe them and to be

54:51

honest like

54:52

okay mining is important it secures the

54:54

network the bitcoin.com wallet is by far

54:56

the most popular

54:57

bitcoin uh cash in the entire world

55:00

and electron cash is probably number two

55:03

and uh abc hates both of those projects

55:05

at this point because both of those

55:06

projects aren't uh in favor of the ifp

55:09

so you can be guaranteed that both

55:10

bitcoin.com and the electron cash

55:12

project

55:13

aren't going to be on the governance

55:14

board and they're not going to get any

55:15

of the money anyhow so it's it's the

55:17

exact

55:18

problem again and i i think you know

55:20

this is just

55:21

a tool that leads to never-ending

55:22

fighting and because it leads to

55:24

never-ending fighting

55:25

it attracts people from building and

55:27

it's something that the ecosystem

55:28

doesn't need or

55:29

and shouldn't want so now we've spent

55:32

all this time talking about fighting

55:34

your parting thought of what's the most

55:35

exciting thing you're working on right

55:37

now

55:38

i want to build cash fusion uh right

55:40

into the bitcoin.com wallet so you have

55:42

super private uh

55:44

super fast super cheap super reliable

55:46

transactions uh

55:47

you can get cash fusion already from

55:49

cashfusion.org

55:50

today desktop but i can't wait to have

55:52

it on mobile so everybody uses this

55:54

that'll give

55:55

you know once we have that and then

55:56

reusable payment codes like bitcoin cash

55:58

transactions will be in the same sort of

55:59

bulk general ballpark

56:01

of privacy is something like monero and

56:03

monero's fantastic the problem is modern

56:05

era doesn't have that big of a network

56:06

effect

56:07

uh and it's accepted around the world

56:08

and and governments have been hostile to

56:10

monero because the privacy has been at

56:12

the protocol level

56:13

whereas if we build the privacy in the

56:14

bitcoin cash uh above that

56:17

uh it'll be hard for governments to to

56:19

blame bitcoin cash you can say no the

56:20

blockchain's totally transparent you can

56:22

see every transaction

56:23

every step of the way so it'll be really

56:25

hard for governments to

56:26

to ban bitcoin cash whereas they've

56:28

already banned exchanges in certain

56:29

countries

56:30

from from listing monero so that that's

56:31

what i'm most excited about and then the

56:33

token stuff a lot of people don't

56:34

realize

56:35

tether is already on bitcoin cash you

56:36

can send and receive usdt

56:38

in your bitcoin.com wallet for a

56:39

fraction of a penny if you do that in

56:41

ethereum at the moment the fees are like

56:43

20 dollars today

56:44

uh so bitcoin cash and bitcoin cash

56:47

based tokens work

56:48

uh right now today and bitcoin cash

56:50

token network can handle more

56:52

transactions than all of bitcoin and all

56:54

of ethereum and all the ethereum token

56:55

transactions uh

56:56

combined uh so bitcoin has tons of

56:58

scalability and then the price uh per

57:00

transaction will still be less than a

57:01

penny so

57:02

i think we'll i'm pretty excited to see

57:04

more people start using their stable

57:05

coins on top of bitcoin cash

57:07

rather than uh than some of these other

57:09

chains well fantastic this has been a

57:11

great chat thanks so much for your time

57:13

roger and yeah we'll get this out

57:14

shortly

57:15

fantastic thank you joel see everybody

57:16

next time if you like the content

57:18

subscribe

57:18

like and share uh this video from joel's

57:20

channel and check out his other videos

57:22

and other content as well

57:23

thanks for the plug

57:30

[Music]

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Must have been a lot of work!

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Yes really very time consuming work. If anyone doesn't want to read this article just want to come to the comment box, it will take at least a minute. Thank you @ErdoganTalk for giving him a generous tip .

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yes sir; its taken a lot of hour but itskinda wasting my time because they havent seen my article...

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