Hello everyone.
ITS my first transcript article and its requires a lot of time to edit but i forget to ask permissions from @RogerVer soo please pardon mee sir if youre seeing my article.
The transcript is done from a video when @RogerVer and Joel Valenzuela Discuss the Upcoming BCH Fork by BitcoinABC.
EDIT: I DONT KNOW WHY THERE IS NO EXC MARK IN MY VIDEO I HAVE COPIED THESE TRANSCRIPTS FROM MY NOTEPAD BECAUSE IF I WRITE THE WHOLE TRANSCRIPT IN READ.CASH SO ITS VERY LAGGY.
Transcript from here
00:00
[Music]
00:03
universal healthcare that sounds
00:04
wonderful but when you look at what
00:05
universal healthcare actually is it's
00:07
just a euphemism for
00:08
a bunch of people with guns threatening
00:10
people with violence if they don't you
00:11
know
00:12
do the the healthcare system the way
00:13
that people with the guns want it to be
00:15
and if you put it that way oh
00:16
universal health care doesn't sound so
00:18
great after all and so i think the same
00:20
with the infrastructure funding plan
00:21
well who doesn't want infrastructure
00:22
who doesn't want it to be funded well
00:24
how can you be opposed the
00:25
infrastructure funding plan
00:26
but if you look at what it actually is
00:28
part of the coinbase reward
00:30
that's been going on for what you know
00:32
almost 12 years now
00:33
uh instead of it going to the miners
00:35
it's going to go to abc and armory
00:37
sashay and they get to decide what
00:39
they're going to do with it
00:44
[Music]
00:48
so hey everyone i have the wonderful
00:50
pleasure of speaking with the one and
00:51
only
00:52
bitcoin jesus roger fair how's it going
00:54
roger
00:55
hey joel so i
00:59
wanted to chat with you after i started
01:02
to see some
01:02
drama unfolding in the bitcoin cash
01:04
world and
01:06
it where it seemed like it wasn't just
01:08
people arguing because arguing happens
01:10
people disagree who cares
01:12
but it seemed like there might be an
01:13
actual chain split in another
01:15
bitcoin for coming out of this whole
01:17
thing and so
01:19
i initially in the recent weeks
01:22
especially you put your public
01:24
opposition
01:25
to the fork or to the people forking at
01:28
least
01:29
much much higher and there's been a
01:31
little bit more of an escalation and it
01:33
seems like
01:34
um as someone who's followed the bitcoin
01:36
cash community kind of from a distance
01:38
and a little more closely lately i've
01:41
seen a lot of people
01:42
some something kind of surprising on
01:44
both sides of this
01:45
issue very much like drawn into the
01:47
different camps
01:48
some people i did not expect to be on
01:50
both sides of the issue
01:52
and so yeah i think it's worth kind of
01:55
getting your take in a good spot by you
01:58
know
01:58
especially from someone who you know
02:00
myself
02:02
i kind of have i have opinions i don't
02:05
really care too much on either side i
02:08
definitely don't want bad things to
02:09
happen that that
02:10
i do care about but i kind of i see both
02:14
sides and i'm not exactly sure which
02:16
which side i'd i completely picked for
02:18
very different reasons
02:19
and so as a semi-neutral person i'd
02:22
definitely like to get your
02:23
get your take on this so first off we're
02:25
talking about the ifp or the
02:27
infrastructure funding proposal um
02:31
so when was the ifp first introduced not
02:34
this current one but
02:35
any ifp so we should probably explain
02:38
exactly what the infrastructure funding
02:39
proposal is because
02:40
i think that's the euphemism uh for what
02:43
it actually is
02:44
right so you can you know universal
02:46
healthcare that sounds wonderful but
02:47
when you look at what universal
02:49
care actually is it's just a euphemism
02:50
for a bunch of people with guns
02:52
threatening people with violence if they
02:54
don't you know do the the health care
02:55
system in the way that people with the
02:56
guns want it to be and if you put it
02:58
that way oh
02:59
universal health care doesn't sound so
03:00
great after all and so i think the name
03:02
of the infrastructure funding plan well
03:04
who doesn't want infrastructure
03:05
who doesn't want it to be funded well
03:06
how can you be opposed the
03:08
infrastructure funding plan
03:09
but if you look at what it actually is
03:11
is it's a
03:12
part of the coinbase reward that's been
03:14
going on for what you know
03:16
almost 12 years now uh instead of it
03:19
going to the miners it's going to go to
03:20
abc and armory sashay and they get to
03:23
decide what they're going to do with it
03:24
um that doesn't sound like such a
03:28
wonderful thing like one developer
03:30
and one group of developers get to
03:31
decide hey we're gonna alter the way
03:33
bitcoin has fundamentally worked for the
03:35
last you know well over a decade
03:37
uh to just basically enrich ourselves to
03:39
eight percent of the total block reward
03:41
each block
03:42
uh i think that's not nearly as
03:45
palatable
03:46
um because of the historical
03:49
track record of bitcoin bitcoin never
03:51
ever ever had anything like that
03:53
uh i think once you start tampering with
03:55
the the
03:56
emission schedule and the the uh
04:00
the block reward you're you're a whole
04:03
new coin at that point right so if you
04:05
want some coin where part of the block
04:07
reward
04:08
goes to pay for you know infrastructure
04:10
developers or that sort of thing
04:11
you have a bunch to choose from right
04:13
you have dash you have z
04:15
cash you have z coin you have a bunch of
04:17
others out there as well
04:19
um a bunch of coins that were pre-mined
04:21
to begin with a big
04:22
reward bitcoin never had that bitcoin
04:24
cash never had that
04:25
bitcoin sv never had that uh this is a
04:28
huge huge huge
04:30
change to the what bitcoin ever has been
04:33
uh and at the moment the group of
04:35
developers that want to do that abc they
04:37
have a very very small minority of the
04:38
hash rate
04:39
uh there's a future market that trades
04:41
it they have about 1 12
04:42
the price so that the minority hash rate
04:44
the you know majority or minority price
04:47
and uh and they're the ones that are
04:48
making this huge huge drastic change to
04:50
what bitcoin has always been
04:52
uh so i don't think it's so much as a
04:54
four this is just they're creating
04:56
their own coin forking off the the
04:58
bitcoin cash blockchain
05:00
so that means all cash holders will get
05:02
an airdrop
05:03
on november 15th and then they can
05:04
decide what they want to do with that
05:06
airdrop they can keep it they can buy
05:07
more of it or they can sell it for
05:08
more ethereum to do defy stuff they can
05:10
sell it for more dash they can sell it
05:12
for more bitcoin cash they can do
05:13
whatever they want but uh
05:14
i i would be stunned if it winds up
05:16
being the majority chain uh somehow
05:18
because it doesn't have
05:20
the majority support it's a super
05:21
contentious thing the big surprising
05:23
thing
05:24
here like you mentioned certain people
05:25
within the community that you're
05:26
surprised came out in favor of this
05:28
um the one that i'm the most surprised
05:30
by i think is vin armani seems to be a
05:32
big fan of this but i think a lot of
05:34
these people they're like oh
05:35
they see they see dollar signs and they
05:38
want it and then
05:39
i guess there's a whole lot of truth to
05:41
that old adage that you know
05:42
always accuse your an enemy is too
05:44
strong of a word but always accuse your
05:46
your opponent of doing exactly what
05:48
you're doing and so there's been a big
05:50
meme where
05:51
uh meme war on social media and whatnot
05:53
and uh
05:54
calling all the people that don't want
05:56
the ifp who don't want to change the
05:58
coin issuance of bitcoin
05:59
cash they're calling them bitshifix
06:01
which i guess is a reference to
06:03
socialism and communism and that sort of
06:04
thing
06:05
but if you look at it that's exactly
06:08
what the ifp supporters are doing
06:10
they're claiming hey
06:10
we're doing a whole bunch of work and
06:12
you guys don't want to pay us for our
06:13
work so we're just playing gonna take it
06:15
that's what government they say oh we
06:17
built you know we built roads and we've
06:18
built schools we built an army
06:20
you're going to pay us whether or not
06:21
you wanted those things or not and
06:23
that's that's exactly what the abc crew
06:24
are doing they're saying hey
06:25
we built full node software and you're
06:27
going to pay us whether you want to or
06:28
not you're going to pay for it right out
06:30
of the block reward
06:32
and so i i think if anybody's you know
06:34
akin to communism
06:36
that sort of thing this whole thing or
06:38
if anybody's a the real bit shavik
06:40
uh ifp supporters because they're doing
06:42
exactly what governments do they're
06:43
building something
06:44
and then charging people for whether or
06:46
not they want to pay for it or not and
06:48
whereas the people oppose the ifp
06:49
they're like hey
06:50
we just want bitcoin cash and bitcoin to
06:52
continue how it's always been
06:53
uh where the block rewards go to the
06:55
miners and then the miners decide what
06:56
to do with it from there
06:58
yeah so that's a great rundown of where
07:01
the situation is today
07:05
how did it get started sorry well that's
07:07
that's a good that's a good recap of
07:09
exactly where we are today for people
07:10
who have not been paying attention
07:12
and they understand exactly what's going
07:14
on right now
07:15
but this idea of the ifp is it's been
07:19
around for a little bit
07:20
longer an idea of repurposing the block
07:24
reward for
07:25
development which in a way donations
07:28
to developers is a very roundabout kind
07:31
of way of that because
07:33
people get the block road goes to miners
07:35
either the miners or
07:37
people who buy it from the miners end up
07:38
with it and then if they give it to
07:40
it's still kind of the same way except
07:41
it's just shortening that path
07:44
and so what was the first ifp
07:47
iteration of the idea um
07:50
i don't really know maybe it was dash to
07:52
be honest because it's existed on other
07:54
coins
07:55
for a long long time before it ever had
07:57
was you know being discussed
07:58
within bitcoin cash there's a lot of
08:00
we'll talk about bitcoin cash
08:01
specifically so what is the first
08:03
ifp idea on there so the first time i
08:06
became aware of it is there was some
08:07
talk about how
08:09
if you divert part of the coinbase
08:11
reward to this infrastructure funding
08:12
plan
08:13
it doesn't just divert from the bitcoin
08:16
cash miners it might it diverts from all
08:18
the shot 256 miners so btc bch
08:21
and bsv and because bch only has a
08:24
couple of percent
08:25
of the total global hash rate for
08:27
shash56 that means that bch miners
08:29
would only pay a a couple percent of the
08:31
total amount of the ifp stuff so
08:34
how does that even work how do you use
08:36
well
08:37
not to use or steel but hey steel how do
08:39
you siphon off money from
08:40
other chains yeah safe enough money from
08:44
other chains
08:45
like is that because the same miners are
08:47
mining the other chains
08:49
and then they would voluntarily donate
08:51
some of that stuff
08:52
yeah so i know voluntary and course is
08:55
kind of blurry in in
08:57
in all of this here but uh the way it
08:59
works is that the
09:00
all the people that have you know
09:01
whatever bit main mining hardware or
09:02
whatever
09:03
they can mine bsv bch or uh btc and they
09:07
can hop back and forth and most of them
09:09
do
09:09
and they hop to whatever one's the most
09:11
profitable at the moment and they mine
09:12
that one
09:13
and so if you make bitcoin cash less
09:16
profitable to mine by not giving the
09:18
the miners eight percent of the block
09:20
reward that means part of the hash rate
09:22
that normally would have been mining
09:24
bch will just switch to mining btc or
09:27
bsv
09:28
and so if it switches to mining btc that
09:30
means btc is now slightly more difficult
09:32
to mine than it otherwise would have
09:33
been
09:34
and ch is slightly easier to mine than
09:36
it would have otherwise been
09:38
uh so you're basically sucking the
09:39
revenue from the entire pool
09:41
of sha 5256 miners and so that part kind
09:44
of seemed interesting like hey
09:45
we can get you know btc miners to
09:47
subsidize the development of bitcoin
09:49
cash
09:50
uh but the big problem is who gets to
09:52
decide who gets that bitcoin cash like
09:55
should it be you know should be armory
09:56
should it be you know should be
09:58
bitcoin.com who arguably has done more
10:00
to spread bitcoin cash adoption than abc
10:02
or any other business out
10:04
there and i think it's kind of like a
10:05
lord of the rings scenario which i
10:07
haven't seen lord of the rings but i've
10:08
seen people talk about enough
10:10
i guess their magic ring and the magic
10:12
ring has magic powers but as soon as
10:13
someone gets the magic ring
10:15
they go crazy with it you have to
10:16
destroy the ring otherwise it's going to
10:18
make everybody fight
10:19
and i think that's that's exactly what's
10:21
happened with ifp here
10:22
is it's this really powerful tool that
10:24
could be used to pay for a lot of really
10:26
interesting things
10:27
the problem is there's no way to decide
10:28
what it gets to pay for or who gets to
10:30
you know get paid for what and it just
10:33
caught a whole bunch of infighting and a
10:34
giant fracturing of the community so
10:36
i think it just at this point seems to
10:38
be too dangerous of a tool for bitcoin
10:40
patch to
10:41
to have and uh if you're a big fan of
10:43
the block reward paying for developers
10:45
you know you know more about dash than
10:47
just about everybody out there i think
10:48
dash is you know willing and eager
10:50
uh to have that sort of thing and i you
10:51
know i bought dash years and years ago
10:53
i i have a number of masternodes uh
10:58
there's no problem with that but that
10:59
was in the social contract from day one
11:01
with dash
11:02
this has never been the social contract
11:04
with bitcoin cash or the bitcoin cash
11:06
ethos and now it's trying to be uh
11:08
imposed
11:08
after bitcoin cash been around for you
11:10
know over a decade
11:12
yeah so for a slight clarification on
11:13
the dash stick as much as i would have
11:15
loved for it to be in day one it wasn't
11:17
exactly
11:18
and the dash history and this is one of
11:20
those things where like i love digging
11:22
deep
11:22
into the history of things because you
11:24
see kind of how where things came from
11:26
and you know like for example when
11:29
bitcoin way back in the day had that
11:31
crazy inflation bug that
11:33
you know i forget what it was called but
11:34
like people don't even know that they
11:36
think it was perfect since day one
11:37
or there's some new evidence that
11:40
satoshi or whoever
11:41
may have what they call fast mind
11:43
bitcoin is in running an
11:44
optimized miner that he did not release
11:46
to the general public and stuff
11:48
and then like and i love things like
11:50
that because it damages the mythos
11:52
of like this is something holy
11:55
conscription of bitcoin
11:56
yeah yeah it damages the mythos of any
11:58
all this any
11:59
you get to sort of focus on what
12:01
actually matters what works
12:03
is it technology any good who cares who
12:04
founded it kind of thing
12:06
and so a dash started as x-coin which is
12:09
literally just like a
12:11
a litecoin fork that was using an x11
12:14
hashing algorithm that was kind of its
12:15
big innovation
12:16
and then there were some bugs and they
12:17
fixed that and then when it turned into
12:19
dark coin they
12:21
were kind of figuring out how to do a
12:23
more trustless coin join
12:25
and so they created masternodes for that
12:28
and they had a
12:28
there's a dash foundation for a while
12:30
and it didn't really work out and it was
12:31
until like
12:32
2015 like about a year in that
12:36
from my memory again people can fact
12:37
check this that they found a way to
12:39
do a uh a vote a masternode vote
12:43
for a block reward type thing and so
12:46
that's kind of how it came about so
12:47
there were
12:48
a few minors and stuff but it was a
12:50
minor chain right there was not a lot of
12:53
activity not a lot of attention and
12:56
people just i guess agreed it doesn't i
12:57
don't think it was very controversial
12:59
the whole treasury idea i think it was
13:00
pretty
13:02
pretty evolutionary and part of that is
13:04
that dash has had in its history
13:06
an evolutionary kind of mindset
13:09
of we're going to make necessary changes
13:13
to the core protocol to
13:15
we're going to tinker we're going to
13:16
make things a little bit better if we
13:17
can
13:18
whereas bitcoin is much more we got to
13:21
stay what we're we got to change as
13:23
little as possible
13:24
that we can get away with to just kind
13:26
of you know keep things going
13:28
and so that's the kind of interesting
13:31
point of view because
13:32
wasn't abc more or less the founding
13:36
client of bitcoin cash
13:37
and this is where it gets like really
13:39
murky because um
13:41
with most cryptocurrencies i think
13:43
there's like one main implementation the
13:45
developers
13:46
kind of do that and with the various
13:49
bitcoins
13:50
there's a few of them but at the end of
13:53
the day
13:53
it seems like what gets implemented
13:57
is what the dominant team kind of does
13:59
like bitcoin core
14:00
the bitcoin core team basically decides
14:03
what happens
14:04
there's competing clients out there but
14:06
it doesn't really matter
14:07
and so it seems like abc sort of is the
14:11
founding development team if that even
14:13
if if that could even
14:15
matter in a decentralized world right
14:16
the founding development team of bitcoin
14:18
cash
14:19
so if i can interject briefly there so
14:22
bitcoin abc was the name of the client
14:24
and abc stood for adjustable block size
14:26
cap
14:28
but one half of that founding team so
14:30
there's america and then there's another
14:32
anonymous person named free trader
14:34
uh free traders the guy that uh is
14:36
behind
14:37
bitcoin cash node and so one of the
14:39
founders
14:40
of bitcoin cash's original client
14:44
is on abc still and the other is now
14:46
bitcoin cash node
14:47
of the and of the miners that are out
14:50
there that are mining bitcoin cash
14:52
um about about 50 are signaling for
14:56
bitcoin cash node for bitcoin cash yeah
14:59
it was 52 i checked a few minutes ago
15:01
yeah i haven't checked yet this morning
15:02
but uh
15:03
zero percent as of yesterday uh we're
15:06
signaling for abc
15:08
and then the other 50 or other 48 aren't
15:10
signaling at all
15:11
so at that point abc is clearly not the
15:14
dominant
15:14
uh note even though they have been
15:17
historically
15:18
uh but that that changed pretty quickly
15:20
with such a controversial
15:22
uh change to to what bitcoin cash is
15:25
yeah so if we're going to go from like a
15:27
kind of governance perspective type
15:29
thing
15:30
uh if there's a lot of coins that have
15:32
some kind of a
15:34
agreed-upon block reward split and most
15:37
of them
15:37
the best place to agree upon that is
15:39
that the founding right it was like when
15:41
you create it so anyone who uses it
15:43
implicitly uh agrees with that kind of
15:46
those those conditions and so one could
15:49
like let's just say abc is the founding
15:52
chain
15:53
they are the founding client and you
15:55
know for what for whatever purposes
15:57
but then what if they had implemented an
16:00
ifp
16:01
with the split from btc obviously
16:04
probably way fewer people would have
16:06
actually jumped on board
16:08
but just from a who's right kind of a
16:12
standpoint if they had just jumped the
16:13
gun done it right away
16:15
everyone's like look if you're going to
16:16
use this new cash style of bitcoin
16:20
you you're part of it's going to go
16:21
defend from the developers so we don't
16:23
have this kind of
16:24
developer capture like we had before
16:26
that would have been like
16:28
would that have been fine in your book
16:29
maybe not the coin that you would have
16:31
most preferred to use but that would
16:32
have been
16:32
like ethically fine yeah i think that
16:35
would have been fine but it would have
16:36
made the coin
16:39
a bit less interesting to me i suppose
16:42
if they had done it
16:42
if they did that from day one of the btc
16:45
bch split that would have made it a lot
16:48
more palatable the
16:49
the bigger any project gets the harder
16:51
it is to make these changes like that so
16:53
you know bitcoin cash is the third
16:55
biggest cryptocurrency
16:56
that's proof of work right so yeah btc
16:59
ethereum and then bitcoin cash is number
17:01
three
17:02
with with dash i'm not sure where it is
17:03
there but you know maybe
17:05
30 or something so it's a lot easier to
17:07
still change things and even dash is big
17:09
right
17:09
so yeah the the smaller the smaller the
17:12
coin is the easier it is to make changes
17:14
bitcoin cash is the third biggest proof
17:15
of work coin in the world
17:17
uh i i think at this point it's not
17:20
something that you should be making
17:21
major changes to
17:23
the underlying economic code that made
17:25
you have this passionate community
17:26
because the
17:27
the tech and the community are both
17:29
incredibly important even if you have
17:30
really cool tech but you have a horrible
17:32
toxic community the tech's not going to
17:34
be used by anybody
17:35
uh and so you have to have both and like
17:37
america may be a fantastic developer but
17:40
uh
17:40
horrible community builder uh that's not
17:43
it's not
17:44
meant to be in a personal attack on
17:46
armory it's just supposed to be a
17:48
a statement of fact like you have to be
17:49
nice and friendly to people
17:51
and yeah homily have that he
17:54
his skills lie in other areas in the
17:56
world yes no matter which
17:58
which way if you consider the nicest
18:00
person in the world or the meanest
18:01
person in the world he does seem to be a
18:03
very
18:04
um kind of go for what he thinks is
18:06
right kind of a thing instead of get
18:08
group consensus
18:09
and see what the whole group thinks he
18:11
seems to be very very bold
18:13
which kind of comes from good we needed
18:15
to forget
18:16
i mean that created it right he just he
18:19
did exactly was like well i don't like
18:20
how you're doing stuff so i'm going to
18:21
do this
18:22
if you guys like what we're doing join
18:24
and it seems like
18:25
my understanding is that he was paid to
18:27
do that by uh
18:28
by jihan and some others as a
18:30
contingency plan for if they
18:32
wasn't allowed to scale so i i don't
18:34
know how much of that was
18:36
armory wanting to on his own versus
18:38
being paid to do that i i don't know
18:40
that's a question primary to to answer
18:42
yeah
18:43
i think that both would be my guess now
18:46
here's the thing where it gets
18:47
interesting uh the there's this council
18:50
now
18:51
this announced with abc or whatever
18:53
happens of course
18:54
a lot of this could be a moot point
18:56
because you could hit november it could
18:58
just be
18:58
there's a hugely lopsided hash rate
19:01
thing where it's like bitcoin cash note
19:02
is like 82 percent
19:04
and there's like now people are actively
19:06
signaling for abc and it's like at most
19:08
10 percent
19:09
it's just like at that point they might
19:11
have just given up or something
19:12
i think you're being optimistic for abc
19:15
to be honest well we'll see
19:16
again i thought that sv wouldn't be
19:19
anything and
19:20
here it still is right i think svg had
19:22
the better economic
19:24
message of like a stable protocol for
19:26
businesses to build on top of
19:27
uh that part is fantastic and abc has
19:29
been the exact opposite of that
19:31
uh and it's been a problem for
19:32
businesses like bitcoin.com trying to
19:34
build on top of abc
19:36
and all and so bitcoin.com is focused
19:38
mainly on bitcoin cash
19:39
if it's a problem for us it's a giant
19:41
headache for all these other businesses
19:42
that
19:43
aren't married to bitcoin cash so all
19:45
the you know the coin bases and the
19:46
different exchanges out there that just
19:48
you know bitcoin cash for them is just
19:50
one of dozens of coins
19:51
they don't want to deal with a bunch of
19:52
drama they don't want to deal with
19:53
forking they don't want to deal with
19:54
hard forks every six months
19:56
uh they want it's you know stable and
19:58
reliable and they can set it up and get
19:59
it working and then
20:00
and then for the most part hopefully
20:02
leave it alone and sv
20:04
bsv has done a great job at promoting
20:06
that message
20:07
uh i don't know if that in reality but
20:09
they've been done a good job of
20:10
promoting that message
20:11
that seems to be the one thing that
20:13
anyone who
20:14
subscribes to the bitcoin theory or who
20:18
likes not just the tech because it is
20:19
just it is just tech
20:21
but there's ideas behind it that keep
20:23
other coins calling themselves bitcoin
20:25
and you know trying to keep to that
20:28
thing it's
20:29
there's an attachment to like the common
20:32
thread in all this that kind of makes
20:34
abc the outlier is the no one controls
20:38
or runs it
20:39
kind of a thing as in the development
20:41
team
20:42
is um is kind of the sticking point that
20:46
like who gets to run it
20:47
now um the permissionless nature of
20:51
cryptocurrency is
20:52
anyone can use it and you can't say
20:54
anything with it but of course that can
20:56
be changed if someone's running it
20:58
can decide things so but
21:02
i have to say i in all these years of
21:05
you know being crypto and focusing on
21:07
this stuff it seems like
21:10
that's one thing that like satoshi got
21:12
almost everything right like
21:14
the economic incentives work pretty well
21:16
the network runs
21:17
you can actually figure out how to scale
21:19
unchained there's like there's a lot of
21:21
cool stuff you can do
21:23
the one thing that seems to all of the
21:25
children
21:26
seems to be affected by is this kind of
21:29
governance
21:30
issue of basically
21:33
no one can figure out who's supposed to
21:35
decide things
21:37
and that is beautiful in a certain way
21:40
and on the other hand clearly someone
21:43
seems
21:44
some things need to be decided and then
21:46
there's just drama and fighting and
21:48
as i put in a pithy tweet a couple days
21:51
ago
21:52
it's either centralized or it forks or
21:54
you have governance
21:55
it's like the three things it's either
21:57
centralized
21:59
and therefore you know who makes the
22:00
decisions you don't know so therefore
22:03
people disagree and fork or it's some
22:06
kind of decentralized but you can
22:08
actually
22:08
have a mechanism for deciding without
22:10
forking have there been any
22:12
any forks or offshoots from dash after
22:14
the masternodes existed and that sort of
22:16
thing or
22:16
not as far as i know there's been
22:18
nothing um
22:19
way like a coup a year or so ago maybe
22:22
there was a
22:23
a chain split on called safe but that
22:26
was a
22:27
chinese knockoff purely profit thing
22:29
that people were just trying to create a
22:31
little airdrop thing like it wasn't
22:32
and almost no one in dash even knows
22:34
about this if you ask them like what is
22:36
safe
22:36
i don't know and so it just there are
22:40
fights there are arguments but those
22:43
things
22:43
collide in it they collide in a
22:47
situation and then there is a
22:49
resolution at some point and then it's
22:51
over
22:52
and i hate to change the subject too
22:53
much but from your fingers there you
22:55
must have been doing some jiu-jitsu
22:56
recently
22:57
yes is a dislocated pinky and it sucks
23:00
but tape is like a miracle though is it
23:02
not so
23:03
yeah it allows you to keep on you know
23:05
doing the same inadvisable
23:06
to your health decisions but yeah that's
23:09
that's what happens
23:10
now this wrist got wrist locked so it's
23:11
all it's it's a little
23:13
challenging right now but it'll it'll be
23:15
good forward wrist locks
23:17
yeah yes of course but to go so go back
23:20
to the
23:20
the governance idea type thing it um it
23:23
seems like
23:25
there is a need for someone to decide
23:27
here here's my
23:28
what i call crypto governance and
23:30
development right now
23:31
i call it the tragedy commons because
23:34
the system is extremely well designed as
23:37
far as
23:38
minor economic incentives who secures
23:40
the network who runs it
23:42
who profits from the fees who does all
23:45
this kind of stuff but the development
23:46
thing is kind of like
23:48
well we'll people will develop i guess i
23:51
don't know what do you think of that
23:52
concept
23:54
i think it's an experiment in motion
23:56
right
23:57
we have a better understanding of what
24:00
what's working and what's not and what's
24:01
happening and what's not so but uh
24:04
trial trial by era i guess yeah
24:07
so for example um when you think about
24:11
you know bitcoin had all this momentum
24:12
behind it and then
24:14
the bitcoin core team uh you know stuff
24:18
happened
24:19
it's for you know to summarize a lot of
24:21
stuff over the years and
24:23
stuff happened but uh it's so first off
24:26
the
24:26
organization if you could even call it
24:28
an organization of bitcoin core
24:31
was there for a long time is still
24:34
there very different people
24:37
you know who within bitcoin core right
24:40
because he used to have like
24:42
and mike hearn and some others uh jeff
24:45
garzik and then
24:46
other people that came to the project
24:47
later didn't manage to kick those people
24:50
out of bitcoin core yet still keep the
24:52
bitcoin core name for themselves and
24:53
then
24:54
morph bitcoin into a project that wasn't
24:56
what anybody signed up for
24:58
pre pre-2013 or 20 even 2015.
25:01
so yes and so the thing with
25:05
the the bitcoin core kind of thing it
25:07
seems like
25:08
like who holds the power is basically
25:10
decided by
25:11
github access it sounds like that's the
25:14
top thing
25:15
and so he who controls the github
25:17
controls the rules and so it seems like
25:20
whatever github's rules are for who has
25:23
access who can kick
25:24
other people off of having access
25:27
the repository control seems to be the
25:29
central point of
25:31
failure in bitcoin's governance system
25:33
in that case
25:34
because whoever does that you know kind
25:36
of rules and then
25:37
a s competing client
25:41
would have to build i guess you know
25:42
separate repository and you have to
25:44
actually get miners to
25:46
to jump on board now it seems like
25:49
miners are a passive actor more than
25:52
active in some cases they'd be very
25:54
active some cases they're like
25:56
this they you know fork off or they
25:58
might but it seems like there's rare
26:00
cases are they active i think you're
26:01
right that they're mostly
26:03
so and it's in obviously and they don't
26:06
fund development directly like most
26:08
mining pools the idea
26:10
of like the the what do we call the
26:12
paleo ifp
26:14
of let's just have mining pools give a
26:16
proportion of their stuff
26:18
kind of voluntarily to development
26:20
doesn't seem to have
26:22
taken root so it seems like you're
26:24
asking
26:25
people to donate for development and
26:28
like a foundation or something like that
26:30
that seems to be kind of the model
26:31
of the main bitcoins forks is that kind
26:34
of
26:34
it yeah i think it's been donations from
26:38
the businesses
26:39
in the ecosystem so like myself you know
26:41
i donated a bunch of money to bitcoin
26:43
core
26:44
back in the day i think mount docs gave
26:46
them money a number of
26:47
other businesses gave the money as well
26:49
and then more recently in bitcoin cash
26:50
days you know bitcoin.com
26:52
or myself have given a lot of money to
26:54
abc to bitcoin unlimited to the
26:56
be cash from from first i o their fork
26:59
of v coin for bitcoin cash
27:00
uh and a number of other things out out
27:02
there as well
27:03
um and there were just a bunch of flip
27:06
starters recently to fund bitcoin cash
27:08
development i think somewhere
27:09
you know close to a million dollars in
27:11
flip starters were recently donated to
27:12
various bitcoin cash infrastructure
27:14
funding plans and
27:15
until very recently the only flip
27:18
starter for full node implementations
27:19
that didn't get funded via flip starter
27:21
to their full amount they're asking was
27:23
abc
27:24
and i think it's not because the quality
27:26
of their work
27:28
isn't pretty good i think it's the
27:29
attitude that you go in
27:31
to it with right if you want people to
27:33
collaborate with you or to donate money
27:34
uh to you
27:35
you have to have a good attitude to go
27:37
with it and if you have a bad attitude
27:39
people aren't going to want to
27:39
collaborate with you on anything
27:41
and uh i'm not happy to say it but i
27:45
feel like
27:46
especially now with the ifp things going
27:47
on the attitude from some of these abc
27:50
guys and you know the
27:52
the biggest one is micro president uh
27:55
which is his real name shema chancellor
27:57
like i feel like that guy
27:58
gone off the deep end with these memes
28:00
attacking everybody and that's not the
28:02
way you know adult
28:03
software engineers trying to build a
28:05
protocol to enable peer-to-peer cash for
28:07
the entire world to literally change the
28:09
course of human history
28:10
that's not how those people should be
28:12
acting and it makes it
28:14
isn't the businessman in the space
28:16
they're you know building businesses and
28:17
trying to build the tools to enable that
28:19
we're not going to want to give money to
28:20
an organization that's busy trolling
28:22
with a bunch of stupid memes on on you
28:24
know twitter and reddit
28:25
every day uh that's that's juvenile
28:28
junior high school stuff that's not the
28:29
stuff that should be done by people that
28:30
are trying to build
28:31
the the platform to change the world for
28:33
the better so we get into
28:35
like who funds development and how does
28:37
it get funded and that seems to be a
28:38
little bit mixed
28:39
there's some positive examples where you
28:41
have a lot of donations that really go
28:43
and it works a bunch of major companies
28:45
step forward
28:46
and at the same time i've seen plenty of
28:48
people complaining all over
28:50
social media over the last several years
28:52
of any number of projects
28:54
oh we're broke there's no no donations
28:56
including bitcoin core very recently
28:58
like in the last several months i've
29:00
seen some people saying
29:01
there's not enough for that of course
29:03
charlie lee's always complaining or his
29:04
his people are always complaining for
29:06
litecoin there's always
29:08
there's a it isn't it can be done it's
29:10
not necessarily guaranteed
29:12
but it can be done in that might be a
29:14
scale thing like more businesses and
29:16
stuff
29:16
working on it could then you know
29:19
bring more awareness into like a scale
29:21
and leadership slash inertia kind of a
29:23
thing
29:24
it doesn't come with bitcoin but you can
29:27
build it on top of bitcoin and it does
29:28
can work relatively harmoniously as far
29:30
as just the funding
29:31
is that are we agreeing on that
29:33
absolutely the bigger the ecosystem the
29:35
more funding there will be for all these
29:36
projects and
29:37
and people need to also keep in mind
29:39
like donations yeah okay they're nice
29:42
sometimes you can get some money from
29:43
that the real way to build to make a big
29:45
change in the world is to build a
29:47
profitable business that earns money
29:49
right amazon
29:50
have changed the you know the entire
29:52
world supply chain
29:54
not by being a organization to ask for
29:56
donations like they say hey
29:58
donate us money and we're going to try
29:59
and build you know delivery within 24
30:02
hours of everything
30:03
no they built a business they charged
30:04
their customers and they earned money
30:06
the reason bitcoin.com has so much money
30:08
to donate to different things and
30:09
different developers
30:10
is because we're a business that earns
30:12
money so if you want to like
30:14
move the needle in the world build a
30:16
business that earns money and you'll be
30:17
able to do that
30:18
all more effectively than building a
30:20
charity that begs for money all the time
30:22
yeah and that's where it gets
30:24
complicated because
30:25
uh you could say obviously businesses
30:28
running on a protocol are businesses
30:30
that's
30:30
very self-explanatory miners are a
30:33
business of sort because they provide a
30:34
good or service
30:36
and they receive compensation for that
30:38
and developers
30:40
is where it gets tricky because if you
30:42
are a hired by a company or something
30:43
like that sure you make money
30:45
if you're building a protocol that
30:46
everyone uses not for free but
30:49
for free to you there's there's no
30:52
direct way of
30:53
benefiting unless a company hires you or
30:56
sponsors you for deal now sponsorship is
30:58
more of a
30:58
charity type of a thing or a i i would
31:01
even agree so like let's let's take
31:02
bitcoin.com and myself for example right
31:05
uh with bitcoin cash i hold plenty of
31:07
bitcoin cash or even dash for example i
31:09
hold plenty of that
31:10
it would be in my economic interest not
31:13
for charity it would be my economic
31:14
interest
31:15
to pay developers uh to make bitcoin
31:18
cash's protocol more useful or make
31:19
dash's protocol more useful or build the
31:21
tools to enable
31:22
more commerce to happen with dash or
31:24
bitcoin cash or whatever
31:25
and so like that's a very clear economic
31:27
incentive because
31:28
you know if if i have let's say i have
31:30
100 bitcoin cash right
31:32
and i donate 10 of the bitcoin cash that
31:34
i have
31:35
to pay a developer to do whatever uh but
31:37
the price goes up
31:38
uh of my remaining bitcoin cash by more
31:40
than 10
31:42
i've made a profit so even though i have
31:43
a smaller absolute number of bitcoin
31:45
cash
31:46
the total value of that bitcoin cash is
31:47
higher so like uh
31:49
derrick mcgill said it exactly right in
31:51
a tweet a while back he said like the
31:52
lack of developer
31:54
funding uh in bitcoin cash it isn't it
31:57
isn't a market failure it's a market
31:59
signal
32:00
and so for example from bitcoin.com like
32:01
we have a substantial budget every
32:03
single month that we spend on all sorts
32:04
of things
32:05
we could devote a bigger part of that to
32:07
pay you know protocol developers
32:09
but in our economic opinion with all the
32:11
moving pieces we can see in the world
32:13
that's not the best use of our money our
32:15
the best use for our money is spent on
32:16
building
32:17
other tools inside the bitcoin cash
32:19
ecosystem so imagine if we still had the
32:21
same bitcoin.com wallet from
32:22
a year or two ago it's not anywhere near
32:25
as good as the one that we have today
32:26
but we spent a lot of money to build the
32:28
one that we have today
32:29
that money could have been given to abc
32:31
or somebody else to do protocol
32:32
development work
32:33
and let's say they did that but
32:34
bitcoin.com still has a crappy wallet
32:37
i don't think bitcoin cash would be in
32:38
as good of a position uh today
32:40
uh if we had done that rather than just
32:42
built focused on building our wallets so
32:44
the fact that companies like bitcoin.com
32:46
and others aren't donating money to the
32:48
protocol developers
32:49
that's market feedback not a market
32:51
failure
32:53
and i think that's an important concept
32:54
to understand and for the people that
32:56
say okay you're not donating well we're
32:57
just gonna plain take it
32:58
uh that that that drives a wedge in the
33:02
community and you're gonna destroy the
33:04
community even if you improve the tech
33:05
and if
33:06
let's say they managed to really improve
33:07
the tech but you've destroyed the
33:08
community in the process
33:11
congratulations you've you've broken
33:14
bitcoin cash
33:15
now that's the that's it that's the
33:18
really that's the point where you know
33:20
the rubber hits the road because
33:22
um there was also plenty of
33:25
company funding on development in
33:27
bitcoin core
33:28
a lot of it from a fantastic company
33:30
named blockstream
33:31
which donated to that funded development
33:35
that increased bitcoin's usefulness
33:38
for their economic purposes and
33:42
unfortunately those economic purposes
33:44
were not in the economic interest of
33:46
the rest of the of the world let's be
33:50
let's be pretty honest probably not the
33:51
rest of the world but it was in their
33:53
interests
33:54
and since they were paying the bills
33:55
they kind of got to decide so there's
33:57
nothing wrong with the funding it's just
33:59
what are the strings attached with the
34:00
funding
34:01
and so how do we kind of get to decide
34:07
how that works because it's not a
34:08
completely free market system here
34:10
it the free market system is all the
34:12
cryptocurrencies out there if you don't
34:13
like what this one's doing go to a
34:15
different one
34:16
that's a free market but as far as in
34:18
the
34:19
on the one ecosystem of one chain
34:22
that's not a free market because only
34:24
one person only one
34:25
path forward can exist developmentally
34:28
really i mean there can be
34:29
competing but at some point you gotta
34:31
resolve and you gotta all go with one
34:33
and
34:34
how do you actually decide that the one
34:37
this
34:37
decision mechanism seems to be the
34:39
miners but the miners seem to
34:42
not be interested in making decisions
34:44
for the most part
34:45
and so that might be the the failure of
34:48
the nakamoto system and i would say
34:50
failure like a
34:51
rude mean kind of a way but that could
34:53
be the one area of land for
34:56
yeah and i have to say with dash
34:58
governance
34:59
where it's an explicit vote and it's
35:01
very easy to vote voter participation is
35:03
not always hugely high either
35:05
and even though in my opinion it's a
35:06
much better system that you have a lot
35:09
more
35:09
easier consensus for that it's not like
35:11
it's it's perfect so
35:13
if if masternodes don't always vote then
35:16
how can you expect minors to vote so
35:19
what do you think you would change in
35:20
the system to
35:22
allow because either you have to
35:26
find a different governance mechanism
35:27
for deciding without splitting
35:29
without completely splitting or you have
35:32
to
35:33
find a way to get miners incentivized
35:36
in acting and like doing things
35:39
yeah that's the hard question what would
35:40
i change to make it better i
35:43
i don't really know um
35:46
i think kind of what we have right now
35:48
though people are free to
35:50
to argue about it and fork away if you
35:52
don't agree with what the
35:53
the main chain is doing and so that was
35:55
the origin of bitcoin cash
35:57
uh that was the origin of bsv uh and
36:00
that
36:00
may very well be the origin of the new
36:02
abc coin whatever it winds up being
36:04
called like if you don't agree with what
36:05
the main chain is doing
36:07
uh fork away and and try and do
36:09
something better that works better and
36:10
and who knows maybe maybe the ifp
36:12
version that forks away from from
36:14
bitcoin cash
36:15
maybe they'll build all sorts of useful
36:17
tech and somehow me maybe they'll rally
36:19
the community behind them and get the
36:20
adoption
36:21
from the you know the bit pays and the
36:22
go cryptos and maybe even bitcoin.com um
36:26
but i think that's really really
36:27
unlikely
36:28
uh the incumbent has such uh a powerful
36:31
position there
36:32
and it's so clear though in the current
36:34
circumstance bitcoin cash is the
36:36
incumbent and abc is working away from
36:38
bitcoin cash
36:40
yeah which is the second second thing
36:43
that's happened
36:43
and that's where we start to get to like
36:46
we're trying to build the most efficient
36:47
model possible
36:49
and bitcoin cash has been
36:52
in what would this be like what the
36:55
third fork of three years or something
36:57
like 2017 was split from btc and then
37:00
about a year later or so is split off to
37:03
sv
37:04
and then it's like your yearly your
37:06
yearly schedule chain split kind of
37:08
thing
37:08
it just keeps on splitting and i can't
37:10
imagine that's productive right i can't
37:12
imagine it's helping bitcoin cash become
37:15
stronger and more useful and have the
37:18
community resources diverted towards
37:19
good things
37:20
i think it's been disastrous yeah i
37:22
think it's been absolutely disastrous
37:24
uh and that's why i'm really sympathetic
37:27
to the the mantra
37:28
uh there of build a stable protocol for
37:31
others to build on top of
37:32
and uh i hope and i would like to see
37:34
the the
37:36
pace of these regularly scheduled hard
37:37
forks to be slowed down or
37:39
or extended or somehow uh not
37:43
forced to happen every single six months
37:45
because that causes fighting
37:46
as to what's going to be in the hard
37:48
fork and here we are again
37:50
with uh a part of the community
37:51
disagreeing with what should be in that
37:53
hard fork
37:54
and uh yeah perhaps uh you know
37:55
splitting away from bitcoin cash so but
37:57
uh
37:59
at the other hand from a business
38:00
perspective right i'll make sure i have
38:02
all my private keys for my coins at the
38:03
time of the fork
38:05
and then i can sell my you know airdrop
38:06
for more bitcoin cash or more dash or or
38:09
whatever else i want to sell it for
38:10
or hold it if that's what i want to do
38:12
uh but uh
38:13
you have to you have to go with what the
38:16
market conditions are you can't
38:19
wish your way into you know a perfect
38:21
world now this is an interesting
38:24
uh thing to look at because bitcoin sv
38:27
i have not been a fan of for most of its
38:29
existence there's some endearing tools
38:31
built on it like twitch i believe you
38:33
joined twitch recently let's just
38:35
is that is that correct okay good so it
38:37
is you a lot of people are saying it
38:38
wasn't
38:40
yes so there's a lot of interesting
38:43
tools being built on it
38:44
and as you've mentioned a lot of bsv
38:46
type lines
38:47
as far as stable protocol that like
38:50
business built on no drama that kind of
38:52
stuff
38:53
now of course the devil in the details
38:54
with bsv
38:57
their words to be clear too so well yeah
39:00
but the devil of details is as i said
39:03
you know for
39:04
it centralized and it seems like
39:07
so first off they do have core protocol
39:10
development right like isn't it the
39:11
shatters fellow or i don't know if
39:13
there's others but
39:14
and he is on somebody's payroll and
39:16
whoever's payroll whoever is paying him
39:19
decides what gets changed which in this
39:21
case is nothing but
39:22
could be in the future so if i can put
39:25
on my conspiracy theory
39:26
yes and i'm not super knowledgeable when
39:29
it comes to bsv stuff because i haven't
39:31
been following it closely
39:32
but uh craig just decided to sue me
39:34
again a couple of days ago
39:36
so he lost the last time and had to pay
39:38
me six figures apparently
39:40
he wants to pay me even more money when
39:41
he loses again here
39:44
the best defense you know against libel
39:46
is that it's the truth
39:47
uh yes um but the the the conspiracy
39:51
theory hat here is
39:52
is and i don't know if if calvin
39:55
believes him
39:56
genuinely or if he's just pretending to
39:57
believe him because it's convenient for
39:59
a business perspective but what it seems
40:00
like is happening here with their
40:01
lawsuit
40:02
is they're going to try and say that
40:03
okay the court has even ruled
40:05
that craig is satoshi and he has to pay
40:07
for the climate estate part of the
40:09
satoshi coins
40:10
and because calvin has such a big
40:12
percent of the hash rate on bsv
40:14
uh what it looks like they're gonna do
40:15
and you can see calvin even said that
40:16
they're gonna do it uh
40:17
on twitter recently as well they're
40:19
gonna fork they're gonna hard fork bsv
40:22
again to give
40:23
craig all the satoshi coins on the bsv
40:26
chain so they can use those to pay the
40:28
climate state so craig is going to hard
40:30
fork bsv to get a million around a
40:32
million bsv coins
40:33
and if the what the price of bsv coins
40:35
now are what like 200 bucks that's 200
40:37
million
40:38
dollars worth of bsv uh there oh my
40:41
hard fork are we speaking of a chain
40:42
split are we speaking of
40:44
just an upgrade yeah so it depends on
40:47
what the rest of the bsv community does
40:49
and i feel like there's two groups
40:50
within the bsv community
40:52
there's the right kool-aid breakers that
40:54
believe everything he says and
40:56
oh the bonded crew he promised for years
40:58
was going to show up that didn't show up
40:59
well that's you know
41:00
whatever we're going to forget about
41:01
that because that was last week and all
41:03
the other broken lies and broken
41:04
promises well forget about it chris
41:06
we're gonna we're gonna continue to
41:08
worship him you know with blind faith
41:10
and then there's the other ones that are
41:11
just like craig's
41:13
i don't want to get sued for the full
41:14
time but craig is craig
41:17
but cool technology that we want to
41:19
build cool things on and we're just
41:20
going to ignore craig and calvin and
41:21
their
41:22
idi idiocracy um
41:25
yeah so that's kind of how i view it
41:28
there and it's the question is craig
41:29
does calvin have enough hash rate to
41:31
to push that hard fork update to give
41:34
craig all the bsv satoshi coins
41:36
and the rest of the community won't be
41:37
able to muster enough hash rate to
41:38
prevent that from happening
41:40
uh and i i don't know i'm not deep
41:41
enough in bsv to have much of an opinion
41:43
on that at all
41:44
yeah so it's clearly someone is at the
41:47
top trying to
41:48
use a chain for personal gain and other
41:51
people on the chain
41:53
will see if they agree or if they will
41:55
be willing to participate or whatever
41:57
but also one thing i've noticed is
41:58
almost every single
42:00
interesting project i think maybe twitch
42:02
is the outlier but i haven't
42:04
again i'm not into people's financial
42:05
business but
42:07
how heavily rely on end chain patents
42:10
and so
42:11
yeah and a lot of software esv is closed
42:14
source
42:15
at this point not closed and the people
42:17
can't see the code but closed
42:19
in the sense that people are not allowed
42:20
to reuse the code and that's kind of
42:22
like the whole ethos of this entire
42:23
cryptocurrency ecosystem is that
42:25
it's open source take the code and make
42:27
something even better with it and bsv
42:29
is closed uh close source in that
42:31
regards
42:32
yeah so it seems like there ha there's
42:35
like the big open question of like how
42:36
do you decide
42:37
who just how do you decide who decides
42:40
the the main things
42:41
where miners are the one easy answer for
42:44
a non
42:44
like let's say non-staked or
42:46
non-mastered type coin
42:48
but miners don't seem to really seem to
42:50
be passive
42:51
but now here's another here's a color a
42:53
couple examples that i would consider
42:54
positive examples
42:56
of what one would call protocol
42:59
decentralization
43:00
development centralization since birth
43:03
so let's
43:03
let's take z cash right uh z cash
43:07
was clearly a company electric coin
43:09
company
43:10
was created to create a privacy-focused
43:14
cryptocurrency
43:15
and do all kinds of experiments and
43:17
figure out what really works well and is
43:18
also
43:19
let people use the chain it's a public
43:20
chain anyone can use it
43:22
and just they get twenty percent of the
43:25
blockboard for a while and
43:26
i know they had their own little like
43:28
re-upping conundrum
43:30
relatively recently which i didn't
43:31
follow too closely but it seems like
43:33
something was agreed upon
43:35
and that seems like you just
43:38
accepted the electric coin company is
43:39
going to build everything
43:41
and if they don't do well the price goes
43:44
down and their profits go down
43:46
if they do well it goes up and then
43:48
there's the other i the other
43:50
one is library which had i believe
43:52
something like a 50 percent pre-mine
43:54
and even though it's a decentralized
43:56
proof-of-work coin the library
43:58
incorporated
43:58
has this big pot of the money that
44:00
they're just sitting on and developing
44:02
and doing an amazing job so far it seems
44:04
and uh building a protocol anyone can
44:06
kind of use and
44:08
i believe they might have given a chunk
44:10
of that away to something called the
44:11
library foundation and as soon as i saw
44:13
a library foundation i started seeing
44:15
rumors of oh this guy got banned from
44:17
the discord oh this
44:18
you know fighting over money that no one
44:21
knows
44:21
who they control but so in the case of
44:23
library zcash they seem to be building
44:25
great products that anyone can use that
44:29
are completely open source and can be
44:30
copied and things like that
44:32
but one team controls everything as far
44:34
as development and it seems to kind of
44:36
because it's accepted sort of work out
44:38
for now
44:39
do you what do you think of that idea of
44:42
that
44:42
kind of philosophy of development
44:46
yeah it's one thing when it's clear from
44:48
the beginning uh i think when it's
44:50
changed you know
44:51
more than a decade in yeah you make a
44:53
change that major you know a decade in
44:56
i don't think and it's a contentious
44:59
split
44:59
i don't think the one making that super
45:01
major contentious chain
45:02
uh change has the right the name anymore
45:06
at that point uh whereas with you know z
45:07
cash is pretty clear and a lot of people
45:10
don't realize this really early on there
45:11
was a fork of z cash
45:13
that didn't have the classic called z
45:16
classic and so z cash has this
45:18
infrastructure fund z
45:20
classic doesn't z cash has done
45:22
significantly better than z classic
45:24
and so maybe that's an example of how
45:27
coins with the infrastructure funding
45:28
can do better
45:30
but you als but i also think part of it
45:32
is that you don't have this
45:35
you know great community around z
45:37
classic whereas you do have a pretty
45:38
strong
45:38
z cash community i think that is the
45:41
reason that z
45:43
cash has done better than z classic
45:44
because of the ifp
45:46
equivalent there or is it because of the
45:47
stronger community and uh
45:49
and certainly the stronger community
45:51
played a role in it not how much did the
45:52
ifp
45:53
play or the the funding for probably
45:55
some as well
45:56
uh but the thing that that appears makes
45:58
me so worried about the
46:00
ifp on bitcoin cash is it'll destroy the
46:02
community
46:03
and uh i think the community is just as
46:06
important if not more important than
46:08
any money to pay for for the developers
46:10
there to to work on the protocol
46:13
yeah now that's um so
46:16
the idea of an ifp type thing
46:19
from day one i mean obviously the
46:20
contention is you're coming in
46:23
halfway through the agreement or
46:25
whatever point of the way through the
46:27
agreement and you're just saying here's
46:28
it's gonna be completely different it's
46:30
like well i never agreed to this
46:32
but say it was just hey i'm starting
46:34
like
46:35
you get the time machine you go back and
46:37
get to whisper in satoshi's ears he's
46:39
starting this whole thing and
46:40
you just get to tell them like look
46:42
things are awesome
46:44
but some crazy things happen you know
46:46
stuff happened right
46:47
but stuff happened along the way uh
46:50
why don't you you know introduce a one
46:53
percent ifp
46:55
for you know whatever in the beginning
46:57
obviously you know that is kind of how
46:59
points started right because the coins
47:00
were basically free in the beginning
47:02
and then people had to go out there and
47:03
do the work to make the coins have value
47:05
by making the coins be useful in
47:07
commerce
47:08
and so that way anybody that had bitcoin
47:10
early on then becomes financially
47:11
incentivized
47:12
to make them more useful for more people
47:14
around the world in more use cases
47:16
uh and so now you know i'm not sure
47:19
exactly when
47:19
some of these abc people got involved um
47:22
but if you look at it there are plenty
47:24
of people early on in the early days
47:25
that had
47:26
cheap bitcoins that were you know
47:27
motivated to to help uh
47:29
make them more useful to the world and
47:31
fund those sorts of things
47:33
yeah so would you think that it's a good
47:36
idea to have the semi-centralized
47:38
development team of a completely
47:41
decentralized protocol
47:43
idea obviously it's working right now in
47:45
some cases but
47:46
do you think that would be a good idea
47:48
for say bitcoin to have started with
47:50
yeah i don't know um i think it's worth
47:53
a try and that's why it's cool that
47:54
there's so many different
47:55
cryptocurrencies now people can try
47:57
every different combination of of you
47:59
know infrastructure funding and
48:00
community building and this and that
48:02
and uh eventually we'll figure out which
48:04
ones work work the best so i think it's
48:06
definitely worth trying
48:08
uh i don't think it's worth pivoting 10
48:10
years in on an existing uh
48:12
existing coin yeah and so it
48:15
this brings back to now we're going to
48:18
be a more established governance systems
48:20
and then possibly some
48:22
cool ideas for the future but because i
48:25
don't think that
48:26
the history book is written on crypto
48:28
and what works and what doesn't i think
48:29
we have like hundreds of years of
48:31
completely different systems ahead of us
48:33
but so for example
48:35
the dash system is pretty efficient at
48:38
resolving differences like when there's
48:41
a big disagreement like should we
48:43
on chain scale yes or no this way should
48:46
we adopt which
48:48
new logo should we adopt these are ones
48:50
let's do this one
48:51
that seems to be pretty efficient on
48:52
doing that and pretty efficient at
48:54
getting funding for
48:55
the one main development team and where
48:58
it becomes
48:59
a little bit less efficient what i've
49:01
you know my personal opinion over the
49:03
years watching is
49:04
when you start funding other ecosystem
49:07
projects
49:08
and there be just because whenever
49:10
you're doing some kind of a
49:12
subsidy type of a thing like a grant
49:14
system or you know you have a you're
49:16
paid from a pot of money type of thing
49:18
you kind of sever the economic
49:20
incentives of a free market
49:22
and i've noticed a inefficiency because
49:24
of this and it's not you know
49:27
with the development team of obviously
49:30
that's the big market mover
49:32
and people you know change the price
49:34
changes more what the development team
49:35
does
49:36
rather than anything else that's funded
49:37
by the ecosystem now
49:39
uh re so one issue was whatever new
49:43
dash coin coins created
49:46
are for the treasury if they don't get
49:48
issued to something they don't get
49:50
created at all
49:51
and of course based on scarcity that
49:53
means if you don't spend the whole
49:54
treasury
49:55
your funds are going to be your money as
49:57
an investor or worth more
49:59
but there hasn't been an economic signal
50:02
to connect those two
50:03
so a lot of people a lot of masterminds
50:05
have you know voted in i guess an
50:07
economically illiterate way and just try
50:09
to use up
50:09
all the treasury doesn't matter where it
50:12
goes to just because
50:13
we have free money but they're starting
50:16
to change the last few cycles have not
50:18
been completely spent they've left some
50:19
on the table
50:20
but they're um they're experimenting
50:22
with a
50:24
protocol change they would basically
50:26
make any funds not created
50:29
for the still get created but sent to
50:31
minors masternodes
50:32
so you actually get to see what you'd
50:34
save if you don't do
50:36
and i think that will really change
50:38
things on that sense that sounds
50:40
great yeah yes and then we're going to
50:43
uh i don't know too much about d cred
50:45
and that's one project i really have to
50:46
do a
50:47
deep dive on but i do know that they
50:49
have some sort of a staked governance
50:51
voting system and a treasury
50:53
but also i think that the that vote
50:57
votes on protocol changes as well and
51:00
as sort of a and not just a hey if
51:03
someone decides to ask a question we get
51:05
to decide
51:06
but every time there's like a hard fork
51:08
or whatever time there's a new thing at
51:10
you it's not just nakamoto consensus the
51:12
stakeholders have to actually
51:14
vote and okay the thing whereas with
51:16
dash right now you know the developers
51:18
create it they put out the code and the
51:20
miners usually choose to implement it
51:22
and they could
51:23
hard fork if they wanted to they just
51:24
tend to not so that's another
51:26
interesting idea
51:28
but here's the thing i was kind of
51:29
thinking because you still are trusting
51:31
the inefficiency of a development team
51:33
you still are trusting one team one
51:36
group of people one company as it were
51:38
and all the people in it is efficiently
51:40
enough run and
51:42
there is a certain level of inefficiency
51:44
they'd have to sync to
51:46
before the network would vote to revoke
51:48
their contract and add it to a new
51:51
new development team testing that limit
51:54
right now
51:54
yes well they don't have i mean the
51:57
council thing
51:58
uh i'll interject in a little bit about
52:01
the council things that's interesting
52:03
but here's an idea right what if
52:07
you could create some sort of a
52:08
decentralized github
52:10
type of a thing and
52:13
basically you would try you could track
52:16
developer
52:18
activity and basically
52:21
transaction fees there's a small split
52:25
of that would go to
52:26
developers based on their activity in
52:29
success or something like that
52:30
obviously it's a very rough idea yeah
52:32
you're the success right that's the hard
52:34
part
52:34
so yes success means like
52:37
the final product different things to
52:39
different people as well though
52:41
yeah yeah right luke junior's definition
52:43
success is going to be totally different
52:45
than you know gavin and jerusalem's
52:46
so yes but basically if you could track
52:49
uh
52:50
whatever whatever implementation gets
52:52
created whoever contributed
52:54
the most to that implementation gets a
52:57
higher percentage
52:58
of whatever and so like for example like
53:00
a one or two commit
53:02
developer doesn't really get a bunch
53:03
again this is considering this is this
53:05
implementation got
53:06
but through it sounds like a fantastic
53:08
way to generate more
53:09
infighting uh all day my commits more
53:12
important than your commit and i
53:14
committed more well your commits weren't
53:15
people was my fewer commits and people
53:17
are going to spend all day arguing
53:18
rather than building things and so i
53:20
think the profit
53:21
mechanism of the market by building
53:23
tools where people actually are
53:24
engaging in commerce to earn money i
53:26
think that's the the best way to figure
53:28
all this out and and uh
53:30
speaking of that i need to get back to
53:31
my normal work pretty soon there but uh
53:33
i'd be happy
53:34
you know part two of this again at some
53:35
point in the future yes do you have like
53:37
two minutes to discuss the council so
53:39
ifp
53:41
and now obviously on its own as abc is
53:44
the
53:45
lord regent developer team of of
53:48
whatever coin they end up
53:49
at the top of lord of the rings uh
53:52
person your character no just i'm saying
53:55
it's like they're they're
53:56
the kings of whatever chain they're on
53:58
now
53:59
they've mentioned something about it
54:02
creating like a governance board type
54:03
thing
54:04
where major mining pools and
54:08
major stakeholders would come and have a
54:10
say on what happens to that money is in
54:12
first uh it's going straight to abc so
54:14
they don't ha at that point they don't
54:16
have to
54:17
share it at all but now they're saying
54:20
we get we'll invite people to a council
54:22
and we will let them based on their
54:25
importance in the ecosystem that is
54:26
cryptographically proven by mining
54:28
whatever we will let them decide what
54:30
happens to that money
54:32
yeah i think i think this seems more
54:34
like a bribe to the miners and if you
54:35
look at it like we just talked about
54:36
earlier
54:37
the miners not wanted this authority or
54:40
this this uh
54:41
they just want to mine their coins and
54:42
be left alone uh they don't want
54:44
responsibility of governance here uh and
54:47
so if anything it seems like it's just a
54:49
way to try and bribe them and to be
54:51
honest like
54:52
okay mining is important it secures the
54:54
network the bitcoin.com wallet is by far
54:56
the most popular
54:57
bitcoin uh cash in the entire world
55:00
and electron cash is probably number two
55:03
and uh abc hates both of those projects
55:05
at this point because both of those
55:06
projects aren't uh in favor of the ifp
55:09
so you can be guaranteed that both
55:10
bitcoin.com and the electron cash
55:12
project
55:13
aren't going to be on the governance
55:14
board and they're not going to get any
55:15
of the money anyhow so it's it's the
55:17
exact
55:18
problem again and i i think you know
55:20
this is just
55:21
a tool that leads to never-ending
55:22
fighting and because it leads to
55:24
never-ending fighting
55:25
it attracts people from building and
55:27
it's something that the ecosystem
55:28
doesn't need or
55:29
and shouldn't want so now we've spent
55:32
all this time talking about fighting
55:34
your parting thought of what's the most
55:35
exciting thing you're working on right
55:37
now
55:38
i want to build cash fusion uh right
55:40
into the bitcoin.com wallet so you have
55:42
super private uh
55:44
super fast super cheap super reliable
55:46
transactions uh
55:47
you can get cash fusion already from
55:49
cashfusion.org
55:50
today desktop but i can't wait to have
55:52
it on mobile so everybody uses this
55:54
that'll give
55:55
you know once we have that and then
55:56
reusable payment codes like bitcoin cash
55:58
transactions will be in the same sort of
55:59
bulk general ballpark
56:01
of privacy is something like monero and
56:03
monero's fantastic the problem is modern
56:05
era doesn't have that big of a network
56:06
effect
56:07
uh and it's accepted around the world
56:08
and and governments have been hostile to
56:10
monero because the privacy has been at
56:12
the protocol level
56:13
whereas if we build the privacy in the
56:14
bitcoin cash uh above that
56:17
uh it'll be hard for governments to to
56:19
blame bitcoin cash you can say no the
56:20
blockchain's totally transparent you can
56:22
see every transaction
56:23
every step of the way so it'll be really
56:25
hard for governments to
56:26
to ban bitcoin cash whereas they've
56:28
already banned exchanges in certain
56:29
countries
56:30
from from listing monero so that that's
56:31
what i'm most excited about and then the
56:33
token stuff a lot of people don't
56:34
realize
56:35
tether is already on bitcoin cash you
56:36
can send and receive usdt
56:38
in your bitcoin.com wallet for a
56:39
fraction of a penny if you do that in
56:41
ethereum at the moment the fees are like
56:43
20 dollars today
56:44
uh so bitcoin cash and bitcoin cash
56:47
based tokens work
56:48
uh right now today and bitcoin cash
56:50
token network can handle more
56:52
transactions than all of bitcoin and all
56:54
of ethereum and all the ethereum token
56:55
transactions uh
56:56
combined uh so bitcoin has tons of
56:58
scalability and then the price uh per
57:00
transaction will still be less than a
57:01
penny so
57:02
i think we'll i'm pretty excited to see
57:04
more people start using their stable
57:05
coins on top of bitcoin cash
57:07
rather than uh than some of these other
57:09
chains well fantastic this has been a
57:11
great chat thanks so much for your time
57:13
roger and yeah we'll get this out
57:14
shortly
57:15
fantastic thank you joel see everybody
57:16
next time if you like the content
57:18
subscribe
57:18
like and share uh this video from joel's
57:20
channel and check out his other videos
57:22
and other content as well
57:23
thanks for the plug
57:30
[Music]
Must have been a lot of work!