@online.surfer 13 September 2020 more from that month

Transcript [Roger Ver & Joel Valenzuela Discuss the Upcoming BCH Fork by BitcoinABC]

Hello everyone. ITS my first transcript article and its requires a lot of time to edit but i forget to ask permissions from @RogerVer soo please pardon mee sir if youre seeing my article. The transcript is done from a video when @RogerVer and Joel Valenzuela Discuss the Upcoming BCH Fork by BitcoinABC. ****EDIT: I DONT KNOW WHY THERE IS NO EXC MARK IN MY VIDEO I HAVE COPIED THESE TRANSCRIPTS FROM MY NOTEPAD BECAUSE IF I WRITE THE WHOLE TRANSCRIPT IN READ.CASH SO ITS VERY LAGGY.**** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gdqzUd0EdY Transcript from here **00:00** [Music] **00:03** universal healthcare that sounds **00:04** wonderful but when you look at what **00:05** universal healthcare actually is it's **00:07** just a euphemism for **00:08** a bunch of people with guns threatening **00:10** people with violence if they don't you **00:11** know **00:12** do the the healthcare system the way **00:13** **that people with the guns want it to be** **00:15** and if you put it that way oh **00:16** universal health care doesn't sound so **00:18** great after all and so i think the same **00:20** with the infrastructure funding plan **00:21** well who doesn't want infrastructure **00:22** who doesn't want it to be funded well **00:24** how can you be opposed the **00:25** infrastructure funding plan **00:26** but if you look at what it actually is **00:28** part of the coinbase reward **00:30** that's been going on for what you know **00:32** almost 12 years now **00:33** uh instead of it going to the miners **00:35** it's going to go to abc and armory **00:37** sashay and they get to decide what **00:39** they're going to do with it **00:44** [Music] **00:48** so hey everyone i have the wonderful **00:50** pleasure of speaking with the one and **00:51** only **00:52** bitcoin jesus roger fair how's it going **00:54** roger **00:55** hey joel so i **00:59** wanted to chat with you after i started **01:02** to see some **01:02** drama unfolding in the bitcoin cash **01:04** world and **01:06** it where it seemed like it wasn't just **01:08** people arguing because arguing happens **01:10** people disagree who cares **01:12** but it seemed like there might be an **01:13** actual chain split in another **01:15** bitcoin for coming out of this whole **01:17** thing and so **01:19** i initially in the recent weeks **01:22** especially you put your public **01:24** opposition **01:25** to the fork or to the people forking at **01:28** least **01:29** much much higher and there's been a **01:31** little bit more of an escalation and it **01:33** seems like **01:34** um as someone who's followed the bitcoin **01:36** cash community kind of from a distance **01:38** and a little more closely lately i've **01:41** seen a lot of people **01:42** some something kind of surprising on **01:44** both sides of this **01:45** issue very much like drawn into the **01:47** different camps **01:48** some people i did not expect to be on **01:50** both sides of the issue **01:52** and so yeah i think it's worth kind of **01:55** getting your take in a good spot by you **01:58** know **01:58** especially from someone who you know **02:00** myself **02:02** i kind of have i have opinions i don't **02:05** really care too much on either side i **02:08** definitely don't want bad things to **02:09** happen that that **02:10** i do care about but i kind of i see both **02:14** sides and i'm not exactly sure which **02:16** which side i'd i completely picked for **02:18** very different reasons **02:19** and so as a semi-neutral person i'd **02:22** definitely like to get your **02:23** get your take on this so first off we're **02:25** talking about the ifp or the **02:27** infrastructure funding proposal um **02:31** so when was the ifp first introduced not **02:34** this current one but **02:35** any ifp so we should probably explain **02:38** exactly what the infrastructure funding **02:39** proposal is because **02:40** i think that's the euphemism uh for what **02:43** it actually is **02:44** right so you can you know universal **02:46** healthcare that sounds wonderful but **02:47** when you look at what universal **02:49** care actually is it's just a euphemism **02:50** for a bunch of people with guns **02:52** threatening people with violence if they **02:54** don't you know do the the health care **02:55** system in the way that people with the **02:56** guns want it to be and if you put it **02:58** that way oh **02:59** universal health care doesn't sound so **03:00** great after all and so i think the name **03:02** of the infrastructure funding plan well **03:04** who doesn't want infrastructure **03:05** who doesn't want it to be funded well **03:06** how can you be opposed the **03:08** infrastructure funding plan **03:09** but if you look at what it actually is **03:11** is it's a **03:12** part of the coinbase reward that's been **03:14** going on for what you know **03:16** almost 12 years now uh instead of it **03:19** going to the miners it's going to go to **03:20** abc and armory sashay and they get to **03:23** decide what they're going to do with it **03:24** um that doesn't sound like such a **03:28** wonderful thing like one developer **03:30** and one group of developers get to **03:31** decide hey we're gonna alter the way **03:33** bitcoin has fundamentally worked for the **03:35** last you know well over a decade **03:37** uh to just basically enrich ourselves to **03:39** eight percent of the total block reward **03:41** each block **03:42** uh i think that's not nearly as **03:45** palatable **03:46** um because of the historical **03:49** track record of bitcoin bitcoin never **03:51** ever ever had anything like that **03:53** uh i think once you start tampering with **03:55** the the **03:56** emission schedule and the the uh **04:00** the block reward you're you're a whole **04:03** new coin at that point right so if you **04:05** want some coin where part of the block **04:07** reward **04:08** goes to pay for you know infrastructure **04:10** developers or that sort of thing **04:11** you have a bunch to choose from right **04:13** you have dash you have z **04:15** cash you have z coin you have a bunch of **04:17** others out there as well **04:19** um a bunch of coins that were pre-mined **04:21** to begin with a big **04:22** reward bitcoin never had that bitcoin **04:24** cash never had that **04:25** bitcoin sv never had that uh this is a **04:28** huge huge huge **04:30** change to the what bitcoin ever has been **04:33** uh and at the moment the group of **04:35** developers that want to do that abc they **04:37** have a very very small minority of the **04:38** hash rate **04:39** uh there's a future market that trades **04:41** it they have about 1 12 **04:42** the price so that the minority hash rate **04:44** the you know majority or minority price **04:47** and uh and they're the ones that are **04:48** making this huge huge drastic change to **04:50** what bitcoin has always been **04:52** uh so i don't think it's so much as a **04:54** four this is just they're creating **04:56** their own coin forking off the the **04:58** bitcoin cash blockchain **05:00** so that means all cash holders will get **05:02** an airdrop **05:03** on november 15th and then they can **05:04** decide what they want to do with that **05:06** airdrop they can keep it they can buy **05:07** more of it or they can sell it for **05:08** more ethereum to do defy stuff they can **05:10** sell it for more dash they can sell it **05:12** for more bitcoin cash they can do **05:13** whatever they want but uh **05:14** i i would be stunned if it winds up **05:16** being the majority chain uh somehow **05:18** because it doesn't have **05:20** the majority support it's a super **05:21** contentious thing the big surprising **05:23** thing **05:24** here like you mentioned certain people **05:25** within the community that you're **05:26** surprised came out in favor of this **05:28** um the one that i'm the most surprised **05:30** by i think is vin armani seems to be a **05:32** big fan of this but i think a lot of **05:34** these people they're like oh **05:35** they see they see dollar signs and they **05:38** want it and then **05:39** i guess there's a whole lot of truth to **05:41** that old adage that you know **05:42** always accuse your an enemy is too **05:44** strong of a word but always accuse your **05:46** your opponent of doing exactly what **05:48** you're doing and so there's been a big **05:50** meme where **05:51** uh meme war on social media and whatnot **05:53** and uh **05:54** calling all the people that don't want **05:56** the ifp who don't want to change the **05:58** coin issuance of bitcoin **05:59** cash they're calling them bitshifix **06:01** which i guess is a reference to **06:03** socialism and communism and that sort of **06:04** thing **06:05** but if you look at it that's exactly **06:08** what the ifp supporters are doing **06:10** they're claiming hey **06:10** we're doing a whole bunch of work and **06:12** you guys don't want to pay us for our **06:13** work so we're just playing gonna take it **06:15** that's what government they say oh we **06:17** built you know we built roads and we've **06:18** built schools we built an army **06:20** you're going to pay us whether or not **06:21** you wanted those things or not and **06:23** that's that's exactly what the abc crew **06:24** are doing they're saying hey **06:25** we built full node software and you're **06:27** going to pay us whether you want to or **06:28** not you're going to pay for it right out **06:30** of the block reward **06:32** and so i i think if anybody's you know **06:34** akin to communism **06:36** that sort of thing this whole thing or **06:38** if anybody's a the real bit shavik **06:40** uh ifp supporters because they're doing **06:42** exactly what governments do they're **06:43** building something **06:44** and then charging people for whether or **06:46** not they want to pay for it or not and **06:48** whereas the people oppose the ifp **06:49** they're like hey **06:50** we just want bitcoin cash and bitcoin to **06:52** continue how it's always been **06:53** uh where the block rewards go to the **06:55** miners and then the miners decide what **06:56** to do with it from there **06:58** yeah so that's a great rundown of where **07:01** the situation is today **07:05** how did it get started sorry well that's **07:07** that's a good that's a good recap of **07:09** exactly where we are today for people **07:10** who have not been paying attention **07:12** and they understand exactly what's going **07:14** on right now **07:15** but this idea of the ifp is it's been **07:19** around for a little bit **07:20** longer an idea of repurposing the block **07:24** reward for **07:25** development which in a way donations **07:28** to developers is a very roundabout kind **07:31** of way of that because **07:33** people get the block road goes to miners **07:35** either the miners or **07:37** people who buy it from the miners end up **07:38** with it and then if they give it to **07:40** it's still kind of the same way except **07:41** it's just shortening that path **07:44** and so what was the first ifp **07:47** iteration of the idea um **07:50** i don't really know maybe it was dash to **07:52** be honest because it's existed on other **07:54** coins **07:55** for a long long time before it ever had **07:57** was you know being discussed **07:58** within bitcoin cash there's a lot of **08:00** we'll talk about bitcoin cash **08:01** specifically so what is the first **08:03** ifp idea on there so the first time i **08:06** became aware of it is there was some **08:07** talk about how **08:09** if you divert part of the coinbase **08:11** reward to this infrastructure funding **08:12** plan **08:13** it doesn't just divert from the bitcoin **08:16** cash miners it might it diverts from all **08:18** the shot 256 miners so btc bch **08:21** and bsv and because bch only has a **08:24** couple of percent **08:25** of the total global hash rate for **08:27** shash56 that means that bch miners **08:29** would only pay a a couple percent of the **08:31** total amount of the ifp stuff so **08:34** how does that even work how do you use **08:36** well **08:37** not to use or steel but hey steel how do **08:39** you siphon off money from **08:40** other chains yeah safe enough money from **08:44** other chains **08:45** like is that because the same miners are **08:47** mining the other chains **08:49** and then they would voluntarily donate **08:51** some of that stuff **08:52** yeah so i know voluntary and course is **08:55** kind of blurry in in **08:57** in all of this here but uh the way it **08:59** works is that the **09:00** all the people that have you know **09:01** whatever bit main mining hardware or **09:02** whatever **09:03** they can mine bsv bch or uh btc and they **09:07** can hop back and forth and most of them **09:09** do **09:09** and they hop to whatever one's the most **09:11** profitable at the moment and they mine **09:12** that one **09:13** and so if you make bitcoin cash less **09:16** profitable to mine by not giving the **09:18** the miners eight percent of the block **09:20** reward that means part of the hash rate **09:22** that normally would have been mining **09:24** bch will just switch to mining btc or **09:27** bsv **09:28** and so if it switches to mining btc that **09:30** means btc is now slightly more difficult **09:32** to mine than it otherwise would have **09:33** been **09:34** and ch is slightly easier to mine than **09:36** it would have otherwise been **09:38** uh so you're basically sucking the **09:39** revenue from the entire pool **09:41** of sha 5256 miners and so that part kind **09:44** of seemed interesting like hey **09:45** we can get you know btc miners to **09:47** subsidize the development of bitcoin **09:49** cash **09:50** uh but the big problem is who gets to **09:52** decide who gets that bitcoin cash like **09:55** should it be you know should be armory **09:56** should it be you know should be **09:58** bitcoin.com who arguably has done more **10:00** to spread bitcoin cash adoption than abc **10:02** or any other business out **10:04** there and i think it's kind of like a **10:05** lord of the rings scenario which i **10:07** haven't seen lord of the rings but i've **10:08** seen people talk about enough **10:10** i guess their magic ring and the magic **10:12** ring has magic powers but as soon as **10:13** someone gets the magic ring **10:15** they go crazy with it you have to **10:16** destroy the ring otherwise it's going to **10:18** make everybody fight **10:19** and i think that's that's exactly what's **10:21** happened with ifp here **10:22** is it's this really powerful tool that **10:24** could be used to pay for a lot of really **10:26** interesting things **10:27** the problem is there's no way to decide **10:28** what it gets to pay for or who gets to **10:30** you know get paid for what and it just **10:33** caught a whole bunch of infighting and a **10:34** giant fracturing of the community so **10:36** i think it just at this point seems to **10:38** be too dangerous of a tool for bitcoin **10:40** patch to **10:41** to have and uh if you're a big fan of **10:43** the block reward paying for developers **10:45** you know you know more about dash than **10:47** just about everybody out there i think **10:48** dash is you know willing and eager **10:50** uh to have that sort of thing and i you **10:51** know i bought dash years and years ago **10:53** i i have a number of masternodes uh **10:58** there's no problem with that but that **10:59** was in the social contract from day one **11:01** with dash **11:02** this has never been the social contract **11:04** with bitcoin cash or the bitcoin cash **11:06** ethos and now it's trying to be uh **11:08** imposed **11:08** after bitcoin cash been around for you **11:10** know over a decade **11:12** yeah so for a slight clarification on **11:13** the dash stick as much as i would have **11:15** loved for it to be in day one it wasn't **11:17** exactly **11:18** and the dash history and this is one of **11:20** those things where like i love digging **11:22** deep **11:22** into the history of things because you **11:24** see kind of how where things came from **11:26** and you know like for example when **11:29** bitcoin way back in the day had that **11:31** crazy inflation bug that **11:33** you know i forget what it was called but **11:34** like people don't even know that they **11:36** think it was perfect since day one **11:37** or there's some new evidence that **11:40** satoshi or whoever **11:41** may have what they call fast mind **11:43** bitcoin is in running an **11:44** optimized miner that he did not release **11:46** to the general public and stuff **11:48** and then like and i love things like **11:50** that because it damages the mythos **11:52** of like this is something holy **11:55** conscription of bitcoin **11:56** yeah yeah it damages the mythos of any **11:58** all this any **11:59** you get to sort of focus on what **12:01** actually matters what works **12:03** is it technology any good who cares who **12:04** founded it kind of thing **12:06** and so a dash started as x-coin which is **12:09** literally just like a **12:11** a litecoin fork that was using an x11 **12:14** hashing algorithm that was kind of its **12:15** big innovation **12:16** and then there were some bugs and they **12:17** fixed that and then when it turned into **12:19** dark coin they **12:21** were kind of figuring out how to do a **12:23** more trustless coin join **12:25** and so they created masternodes for that **12:28** and they had a **12:28** there's a dash foundation for a while **12:30** and it didn't really work out and it was **12:31** until like **12:32** 2015 like about a year in that **12:36** from my memory again people can fact **12:37** check this that they found a way to **12:39** do a uh a vote a masternode vote **12:43** for a block reward type thing and so **12:46** that's kind of how it came about so **12:47** there were **12:48** a few minors and stuff but it was a **12:50** minor chain right there was not a lot of **12:53** activity not a lot of attention and **12:56** people just i guess agreed it doesn't i **12:57** don't think it was very controversial **12:59** the whole treasury idea i think it was **13:00** pretty **13:02** pretty evolutionary and part of that is **13:04** that dash has had in its history **13:06** an evolutionary kind of mindset **13:09** of we're going to make necessary changes **13:13** to the core protocol to **13:15** we're going to tinker we're going to **13:16** make things a little bit better if we **13:17** can **13:18** whereas bitcoin is much more we got to **13:21** stay what we're we got to change as **13:23** little as possible **13:24** that we can get away with to just kind **13:26** of you know keep things going **13:28** and so that's the kind of interesting **13:31** point of view because **13:32** wasn't abc more or less the founding **13:36** client of bitcoin cash **13:37** and this is where it gets like really **13:39** murky because um **13:41** with most cryptocurrencies i think **13:43** there's like one main implementation the **13:45** developers **13:46** kind of do that and with the various **13:49** bitcoins **13:50** there's a few of them but at the end of **13:53** the day **13:53** it seems like what gets implemented **13:57** is what the dominant team kind of does **13:59** like bitcoin core **14:00** the bitcoin core team basically decides **14:03** what happens **14:04** there's competing clients out there but **14:06** it doesn't really matter **14:07** and so it seems like abc sort of is the **14:11** founding development team if that even **14:13** if if that could even **14:15** matter in a decentralized world right **14:16** the founding development team of bitcoin **14:18** cash **14:19** so if i can interject briefly there so **14:22** bitcoin abc was the name of the client **14:24** and abc stood for adjustable block size **14:26** cap **14:28** but one half of that founding team so **14:30** there's america and then there's another **14:32** anonymous person named free trader **14:34** uh free traders the guy that uh is **14:36** behind **14:37** bitcoin cash node and so one of the **14:39** founders **14:40** of bitcoin cash's original client **14:44** is on abc still and the other is now **14:46** bitcoin cash node **14:47** of the and of the miners that are out **14:50** there that are mining bitcoin cash **14:52** um about about 50 are signaling for **14:56** bitcoin cash node for bitcoin cash yeah **14:59** it was 52 i checked a few minutes ago **15:01** yeah i haven't checked yet this morning **15:02** but uh **15:03** zero percent as of yesterday uh we're **15:06** signaling for abc **15:08** and then the other 50 or other 48 aren't **15:10** signaling at all **15:11** so at that point abc is clearly not the **15:14** dominant **15:14** uh note even though they have been **15:17** historically **15:18** uh but that that changed pretty quickly **15:20** with such a controversial **15:22** uh change to to what bitcoin cash is **15:25** yeah so if we're going to go from like a **15:27** kind of governance perspective type **15:29** thing **15:30** uh if there's a lot of coins that have **15:32** some kind of a **15:34** agreed-upon block reward split and most **15:37** of them **15:37** the best place to agree upon that is **15:39** that the founding right it was like when **15:41** you create it so anyone who uses it **15:43** implicitly uh agrees with that kind of **15:46** those those conditions and so one could **15:49** like let's just say abc is the founding **15:52** chain **15:53** they are the founding client and you **15:55** know for what for whatever purposes **15:57** but then what if they had implemented an **16:00** ifp **16:01** with the split from btc obviously **16:04** probably way fewer people would have **16:06** actually jumped on board **16:08** but just from a who's right kind of a **16:12** standpoint if they had just jumped the **16:13** gun done it right away **16:15** everyone's like look if you're going to **16:16** use this new cash style of bitcoin **16:20** you you're part of it's going to go **16:21** defend from the developers so we don't **16:23** have this kind of **16:24** developer capture like we had before **16:26** that would have been like **16:28** would that have been fine in your book **16:29** maybe not the coin that you would have **16:31** most preferred to use but that would **16:32** have been **16:32** like ethically fine yeah i think that **16:35** would have been fine but it would have **16:36** made the coin **16:39** a bit less interesting to me i suppose **16:42** if they had done it **16:42** if they did that from day one of the btc **16:45** bch split that would have made it a lot **16:48** more palatable the **16:49** the bigger any project gets the harder **16:51** it is to make these changes like that so **16:53** you know bitcoin cash is the third **16:55** biggest cryptocurrency **16:56** that's proof of work right so yeah btc **16:59** ethereum and then bitcoin cash is number **17:01** three **17:02** with with dash i'm not sure where it is **17:03** there but you know maybe **17:05** 30 or something so it's a lot easier to **17:07** still change things and even dash is big **17:09** right **17:09** so yeah the the smaller the smaller the **17:12** coin is the easier it is to make changes **17:14** bitcoin cash is the third biggest proof **17:15** of work coin in the world **17:17** uh i i think at this point it's not **17:20** something that you should be making **17:21** major changes to **17:23** the underlying economic code that made **17:25** you have this passionate community **17:26** because the **17:27** the tech and the community are both **17:29** incredibly important even if you have **17:30** really cool tech but you have a horrible **17:32** toxic community the tech's not going to **17:34** be used by anybody **17:35** uh and so you have to have both and like **17:37** america may be a fantastic developer but **17:40** uh **17:40** horrible community builder uh that's not **17:43** it's not **17:44** meant to be in a personal attack on **17:46** armory it's just supposed to be a **17:48** a statement of fact like you have to be **17:49** nice and friendly to people **17:51** and yeah homily have that he **17:54** his skills lie in other areas in the **17:56** world yes no matter which **17:58** which way if you consider the nicest **18:00** person in the world or the meanest **18:01** person in the world he does seem to be a **18:03** very **18:04** um kind of go for what he thinks is **18:06** right kind of a thing instead of get **18:08** group consensus **18:09** and see what the whole group thinks he **18:11** seems to be very very bold **18:13** which kind of comes from good we needed **18:15** to forget **18:16** i mean that created it right he just he **18:19** did exactly was like well i don't like **18:20** how you're doing stuff so i'm going to **18:21** do this **18:22** if you guys like what we're doing join **18:24** and it seems like **18:25** my understanding is that he was paid to **18:27** do that by uh **18:28** by jihan and some others as a **18:30** contingency plan for if they **18:32** wasn't allowed to scale so i i don't **18:34** know how much of that was **18:36** armory wanting to on his own versus **18:38** being paid to do that i i don't know **18:40** that's a question primary to to answer **18:42** yeah **18:43** i think that both would be my guess now **18:46** here's the thing where it gets **18:47** interesting uh the there's this council **18:50** now **18:51** this announced with abc or whatever **18:53** happens of course **18:54** a lot of this could be a moot point **18:56** because you could hit november it could **18:58** just be **18:58** there's a hugely lopsided hash rate **19:01** thing where it's like bitcoin cash note **19:02** is like 82 percent **19:04** and there's like now people are actively **19:06** signaling for abc and it's like at most **19:08** 10 percent **19:09** it's just like at that point they might **19:11** have just given up or something **19:12** i think you're being optimistic for abc **19:15** to be honest well we'll see **19:16** again i thought that sv wouldn't be **19:19** anything and **19:20** here it still is right i think svg had **19:22** the better economic **19:24** message of like a stable protocol for **19:26** businesses to build on top of **19:27** uh that part is fantastic and abc has **19:29** been the exact opposite of that **19:31** uh and it's been a problem for **19:32** businesses like bitcoin.com trying to **19:34** build on top of abc **19:36** and all and so bitcoin.com is focused **19:38** mainly on bitcoin cash **19:39** if it's a problem for us it's a giant **19:41** headache for all these other businesses **19:42** that **19:43** aren't married to bitcoin cash so all **19:45** the you know the coin bases and the **19:46** different exchanges out there that just **19:48** you know bitcoin cash for them is just **19:50** one of dozens of coins **19:51** they don't want to deal with a bunch of **19:52** drama they don't want to deal with **19:53** forking they don't want to deal with **19:54** hard forks every six months **19:56** uh they want it's you know stable and **19:58** reliable and they can set it up and get **19:59** it working and then **20:00** and then for the most part hopefully **20:02** leave it alone and sv **20:04** bsv has done a great job at promoting **20:06** that message **20:07** uh i don't know if that in reality but **20:09** they've been done a good job of **20:10** promoting that message **20:11** that seems to be the one thing that **20:13** anyone who **20:14** subscribes to the bitcoin theory or who **20:18** likes not just the tech because it is **20:19** just it is just tech **20:21** but there's ideas behind it that keep **20:23** other coins calling themselves bitcoin **20:25** and you know trying to keep to that **20:28** thing it's **20:29** there's an attachment to like the common **20:32** thread in all this that kind of makes **20:34** abc the outlier is the no one controls **20:38** or runs it **20:39** kind of a thing as in the development **20:41** team **20:42** is um is kind of the sticking point that **20:46** like who gets to run it **20:47** now um the permissionless nature of **20:51** cryptocurrency is **20:52** anyone can use it and you can't say **20:54** anything with it but of course that can **20:56** be changed if someone's running it **20:58** can decide things so but **21:02** i have to say i in all these years of **21:05** you know being crypto and focusing on **21:07** this stuff it seems like **21:10** that's one thing that like satoshi got **21:12** almost everything right like **21:14** the economic incentives work pretty well **21:16** the network runs **21:17** you can actually figure out how to scale **21:19** unchained there's like there's a lot of **21:21** cool stuff you can do **21:23** the one thing that seems to all of the **21:25** children **21:26** seems to be affected by is this kind of **21:29** governance **21:30** issue of basically **21:33** no one can figure out who's supposed to **21:35** decide things **21:37** and that is beautiful in a certain way **21:40** and on the other hand clearly someone **21:43** seems **21:44** some things need to be decided and then **21:46** there's just drama and fighting and **21:48** as i put in a pithy tweet a couple days **21:51** ago **21:52** it's either centralized or it forks or **21:54** you have governance **21:55** it's like the three things it's either **21:57** centralized **21:59** and therefore you know who makes the **22:00** decisions you don't know so therefore **22:03** people disagree and fork or it's some **22:06** kind of decentralized but you can **22:08** actually **22:08** have a mechanism for deciding without **22:10** forking have there been any **22:12** any forks or offshoots from dash after **22:14** the masternodes existed and that sort of **22:16** thing or **22:16** not as far as i know there's been **22:18** nothing um **22:19** way like a coup a year or so ago maybe **22:22** there was a **22:23** a chain split on called safe but that **22:26** was a **22:27** chinese knockoff purely profit thing **22:29** that people were just trying to create a **22:31** little airdrop thing like it wasn't **22:32** and almost no one in dash even knows **22:34** about this if you ask them like what is **22:36** safe **22:36** i don't know and so it just there are **22:40** fights there are arguments but those **22:43** things **22:43** collide in it they collide in a **22:47** situation and then there is a **22:49** resolution at some point and then it's **22:51** over **22:52** and i hate to change the subject too **22:53** much but from your fingers there you **22:55** must have been doing some jiu-jitsu **22:56** recently **22:57** yes is a dislocated pinky and it sucks **23:00** but tape is like a miracle though is it **23:02** not so **23:03** yeah it allows you to keep on you know **23:05** doing the same inadvisable **23:06** to your health decisions but yeah that's **23:09** that's what happens **23:10** now this wrist got wrist locked so it's **23:11** all it's it's a little **23:13** challenging right now but it'll it'll be **23:15** good forward wrist locks **23:17** yeah yes of course but to go so go back **23:20** to the **23:20** the governance idea type thing it um it **23:23** seems like **23:25** there is a need for someone to decide **23:27** here here's my **23:28** what i call crypto governance and **23:30** development right now **23:31** i call it the tragedy commons because **23:34** the system is extremely well designed as **23:37** far as **23:38** minor economic incentives who secures **23:40** the network who runs it **23:42** who profits from the fees who does all **23:45** this kind of stuff but the development **23:46** thing is kind of like **23:48** well we'll people will develop i guess i **23:51** don't know what do you think of that **23:52** concept **23:54** i think it's an experiment in motion **23:56** right **23:57** we have a better understanding of what **24:00** what's working and what's not and what's **24:01** happening and what's not so but uh **24:04** trial trial by era i guess yeah **24:07** so for example um when you think about **24:11** you know bitcoin had all this momentum **24:12** behind it and then **24:14** the bitcoin core team uh you know stuff **24:18** happened **24:19** it's for you know to summarize a lot of **24:21** stuff over the years and **24:23** stuff happened but uh it's so first off **24:26** the **24:26** organization if you could even call it **24:28** an organization of bitcoin core **24:31** was there for a long time is still **24:34** there very different people **24:37** you know who within bitcoin core right **24:40** because he used to have like **24:42** and mike hearn and some others uh jeff **24:45** garzik and then **24:46** other people that came to the project **24:47** later didn't manage to kick those people **24:50** out of bitcoin core yet still keep the **24:52** bitcoin core name for themselves and **24:53** then **24:54** morph bitcoin into a project that wasn't **24:56** what anybody signed up for **24:58** pre pre-2013 or 20 even 2015. **25:01** so yes and so the thing with **25:05** the the bitcoin core kind of thing it **25:07** seems like **25:08** like who holds the power is basically **25:10** decided by **25:11** github access it sounds like that's the **25:14** top thing **25:15** and so he who controls the github **25:17** controls the rules and so it seems like **25:20** whatever github's rules are for who has **25:23** access who can kick **25:24** other people off of having access **25:27** the repository control seems to be the **25:29** central point of **25:31** failure in bitcoin's governance system **25:33** in that case **25:34** because whoever does that you know kind **25:36** of rules and then **25:37** a s competing client **25:41** would have to build i guess you know **25:42** separate repository and you have to **25:44** actually get miners to **25:46** to jump on board now it seems like **25:49** miners are a passive actor more than **25:52** active in some cases they'd be very **25:54** active some cases they're like **25:56** this they you know fork off or they **25:58** might but it seems like there's rare **26:00** cases are they active i think you're **26:01** right that they're mostly **26:03** so and it's in obviously and they don't **26:06** fund development directly like most **26:08** mining pools the idea **26:10** of like the the what do we call the **26:12** paleo ifp **26:14** of let's just have mining pools give a **26:16** proportion of their stuff **26:18** kind of voluntarily to development **26:20** doesn't seem to have **26:22** taken root so it seems like you're **26:24** asking **26:25** people to donate for development and **26:28** like a foundation or something like that **26:30** that seems to be kind of the model **26:31** of the main bitcoins forks is that kind **26:34** of **26:34** it yeah i think it's been donations from **26:38** the businesses **26:39** in the ecosystem so like myself you know **26:41** i donated a bunch of money to bitcoin **26:43** core **26:44** back in the day i think mount docs gave **26:46** them money a number of **26:47** other businesses gave the money as well **26:49** and then more recently in bitcoin cash **26:50** days you know bitcoin.com **26:52** or myself have given a lot of money to **26:54** abc to bitcoin unlimited to the **26:56** be cash from from first i o their fork **26:59** of v coin for bitcoin cash **27:00** uh and a number of other things out out **27:02** there as well **27:03** um and there were just a bunch of flip **27:06** starters recently to fund bitcoin cash **27:08** development i think somewhere **27:09** you know close to a million dollars in **27:11** flip starters were recently donated to **27:12** various bitcoin cash infrastructure **27:14** funding plans and **27:15** until very recently the only flip **27:18** starter for full node implementations **27:19** that didn't get funded via flip starter **27:21** to their full amount they're asking was **27:23** abc **27:24** and i think it's not because the quality **27:26** of their work **27:28** isn't pretty good i think it's the **27:29** attitude that you go in **27:31** to it with right if you want people to **27:33** collaborate with you or to donate money **27:34** uh to you **27:35** you have to have a good attitude to go **27:37** with it and if you have a bad attitude **27:39** people aren't going to want to **27:39** collaborate with you on anything **27:41** and uh i'm not happy to say it but i **27:45** feel like **27:46** especially now with the ifp things going **27:47** on the attitude from some of these abc **27:50** guys and you know the **27:52** the biggest one is micro president uh **27:55** which is his real name shema chancellor **27:57** like i feel like that guy **27:58** gone off the deep end with these memes **28:00** attacking everybody and that's not the **28:02** way you know adult **28:03** software engineers trying to build a **28:05** protocol to enable peer-to-peer cash for **28:07** the entire world to literally change the **28:09** course of human history **28:10** that's not how those people should be **28:12** acting and it makes it **28:14** isn't the businessman in the space **28:16** they're you know building businesses and **28:17** trying to build the tools to enable that **28:19** we're not going to want to give money to **28:20** an organization that's busy trolling **28:22** with a bunch of stupid memes on on you **28:24** know twitter and reddit **28:25** every day uh that's that's juvenile **28:28** junior high school stuff that's not the **28:29** stuff that should be done by people that **28:30** are trying to build **28:31** the the platform to change the world for **28:33** the better so we get into **28:35** like who funds development and how does **28:37** it get funded and that seems to be a **28:38** little bit mixed **28:39** there's some positive examples where you **28:41** have a lot of donations that really go **28:43** and it works a bunch of major companies **28:45** step forward **28:46** and at the same time i've seen plenty of **28:48** people complaining all over **28:50** social media over the last several years **28:52** of any number of projects **28:54** oh we're broke there's no no donations **28:56** including bitcoin core very recently **28:58** like in the last several months i've **29:00** seen some people saying **29:01** there's not enough for that of course **29:03** charlie lee's always complaining or his **29:04** his people are always complaining for **29:06** litecoin there's always **29:08** there's a it isn't it can be done it's **29:10** not necessarily guaranteed **29:12** but it can be done in that might be a **29:14** scale thing like more businesses and **29:16** stuff **29:16** working on it could then you know **29:19** bring more awareness into like a scale **29:21** and leadership slash inertia kind of a **29:23** thing **29:24** it doesn't come with bitcoin but you can **29:27** build it on top of bitcoin and it does **29:28** can work relatively harmoniously as far **29:30** as just the funding **29:31** is that are we agreeing on that **29:33** absolutely the bigger the ecosystem the **29:35** more funding there will be for all these **29:36** projects and **29:37** and people need to also keep in mind **29:39** like donations yeah okay they're nice **29:42** sometimes you can get some money from **29:43** that the real way to build to make a big **29:45** change in the world is to build a **29:47** profitable business that earns money **29:49** right amazon **29:50** have changed the you know the entire **29:52** world supply chain **29:54** not by being a organization to ask for **29:56** donations like they say hey **29:58** donate us money and we're going to try **29:59** and build you know delivery within 24 **30:02** hours of everything **30:03** no they built a business they charged **30:04** their customers and they earned money **30:06** the reason bitcoin.com has so much money **30:08** to donate to different things and **30:09** different developers **30:10** is because we're a business that earns **30:12** money so if you want to like **30:14** move the needle in the world build a **30:16** business that earns money and you'll be **30:17** able to do that **30:18** all more effectively than building a **30:20** charity that begs for money all the time **30:22** yeah and that's where it gets **30:24** complicated because **30:25** uh you could say obviously businesses **30:28** running on a protocol are businesses **30:30** that's **30:30** very self-explanatory miners are a **30:33** business of sort because they provide a **30:34** good or service **30:36** and they receive compensation for that **30:38** and developers **30:40** is where it gets tricky because if you **30:42** are a hired by a company or something **30:43** like that sure you make money **30:45** if you're building a protocol that **30:46** everyone uses not for free but **30:49** for free to you there's there's no **30:52** direct way of **30:53** benefiting unless a company hires you or **30:56** sponsors you for deal now sponsorship is **30:58** more of a **30:58** charity type of a thing or a i i would **31:01** even agree so like let's let's take **31:02** bitcoin.com and myself for example right **31:05** uh with bitcoin cash i hold plenty of **31:07** bitcoin cash or even dash for example i **31:09** hold plenty of that **31:10** it would be in my economic interest not **31:13** for charity it would be my economic **31:14** interest **31:15** to pay developers uh to make bitcoin **31:18** cash's protocol more useful or make **31:19** dash's protocol more useful or build the **31:21** tools to enable **31:22** more commerce to happen with dash or **31:24** bitcoin cash or whatever **31:25** and so like that's a very clear economic **31:27** incentive because **31:28** you know if if i have let's say i have **31:30** 100 bitcoin cash right **31:32** and i donate 10 of the bitcoin cash that **31:34** i have **31:35** to pay a developer to do whatever uh but **31:37** the price goes up **31:38** uh of my remaining bitcoin cash by more **31:40** than 10 **31:42** i've made a profit so even though i have **31:43** a smaller absolute number of bitcoin **31:45** cash **31:46** the total value of that bitcoin cash is **31:47** higher so like uh **31:49** derrick mcgill said it exactly right in **31:51** a tweet a while back he said like the **31:52** lack of developer **31:54** funding uh in bitcoin cash it isn't it **31:57** isn't a market failure it's a market **31:59** signal **32:00** and so for example from bitcoin.com like **32:01** we have a substantial budget every **32:03** single month that we spend on all sorts **32:04** of things **32:05** we could devote a bigger part of that to **32:07** pay you know protocol developers **32:09** but in our economic opinion with all the **32:11** moving pieces we can see in the world **32:13** that's not the best use of our money our **32:15** the best use for our money is spent on **32:16** building **32:17** other tools inside the bitcoin cash **32:19** ecosystem so imagine if we still had the **32:21** same bitcoin.com wallet from **32:22** a year or two ago it's not anywhere near **32:25** as good as the one that we have today **32:26** but we spent a lot of money to build the **32:28** one that we have today **32:29** that money could have been given to abc **32:31** or somebody else to do protocol **32:32** development work **32:33** and let's say they did that but **32:34** bitcoin.com still has a crappy wallet **32:37** i don't think bitcoin cash would be in **32:38** as good of a position uh today **32:40** uh if we had done that rather than just **32:42** built focused on building our wallets so **32:44** the fact that companies like bitcoin.com **32:46** and others aren't donating money to the **32:48** protocol developers **32:49** that's market feedback not a market **32:51** failure **32:53** and i think that's an important concept **32:54** to understand and for the people that **32:56** say okay you're not donating well we're **32:57** just gonna plain take it **32:58** uh that that that drives a wedge in the **33:02** community and you're gonna destroy the **33:04** community even if you improve the tech **33:05** and if **33:06** let's say they managed to really improve **33:07** the tech but you've destroyed the **33:08** community in the process **33:11** congratulations you've you've broken **33:14** bitcoin cash **33:15** now that's the that's it that's the **33:18** really that's the point where you know **33:20** the rubber hits the road because **33:22** um there was also plenty of **33:25** company funding on development in **33:27** bitcoin core **33:28** a lot of it from a fantastic company **33:30** named blockstream **33:31** which donated to that funded development **33:35** that increased bitcoin's usefulness **33:38** for their economic purposes and **33:42** unfortunately those economic purposes **33:44** were not in the economic interest of **33:46** the rest of the of the world let's be **33:50** let's be pretty honest probably not the **33:51** rest of the world but it was in their **33:53** interests **33:54** and since they were paying the bills **33:55** they kind of got to decide so there's **33:57** nothing wrong with the funding it's just **33:59** what are the strings attached with the **34:00** funding **34:01** and so how do we kind of get to decide **34:07** how that works because it's not a **34:08** completely free market system here **34:10** it the free market system is all the **34:12** cryptocurrencies out there if you don't **34:13** like what this one's doing go to a **34:15** different one **34:16** that's a free market but as far as in **34:18** the **34:19** on the one ecosystem of one chain **34:22** that's not a free market because only **34:24** one person only one **34:25** path forward can exist developmentally **34:28** really i mean there can be **34:29** competing but at some point you gotta **34:31** resolve and you gotta all go with one **34:33** and **34:34** how do you actually decide that the one **34:37** this **34:37** decision mechanism seems to be the **34:39** miners but the miners seem to **34:42** not be interested in making decisions **34:44** for the most part **34:45** and so that might be the the failure of **34:48** the nakamoto system and i would say **34:50** failure like a **34:51** rude mean kind of a way but that could **34:53** be the one area of land for **34:56** yeah and i have to say with dash **34:58** governance **34:59** where it's an explicit vote and it's **35:01** very easy to vote voter participation is **35:03** not always hugely high either **35:05** and even though in my opinion it's a **35:06** much better system that you have a lot **35:09** more **35:09** easier consensus for that it's not like **35:11** it's it's perfect so **35:13** if if masternodes don't always vote then **35:16** how can you expect minors to vote so **35:19** what do you think you would change in **35:20** the system to **35:22** allow because either you have to **35:26** find a different governance mechanism **35:27** for deciding without splitting **35:29** without completely splitting or you have **35:32** to **35:33** find a way to get miners incentivized **35:36** in acting and like doing things **35:39** yeah that's the hard question what would **35:40** i change to make it better i **35:43** i don't really know um **35:46** i think kind of what we have right now **35:48** though people are free to **35:50** to argue about it and fork away if you **35:52** don't agree with what the **35:53** the main chain is doing and so that was **35:55** the origin of bitcoin cash **35:57** uh that was the origin of bsv uh and **36:00** that **36:00** may very well be the origin of the new **36:02** abc coin whatever it winds up being **36:04** called like if you don't agree with what **36:05** the main chain is doing **36:07** uh fork away and and try and do **36:09** something better that works better and **36:10** and who knows maybe maybe the ifp **36:12** version that forks away from from **36:14** bitcoin cash **36:15** maybe they'll build all sorts of useful **36:17** tech and somehow me maybe they'll rally **36:19** the community behind them and get the **36:20** adoption **36:21** from the you know the bit pays and the **36:22** go cryptos and maybe even bitcoin.com um **36:26** but i think that's really really **36:27** unlikely **36:28** uh the incumbent has such uh a powerful **36:31** position there **36:32** and it's so clear though in the current **36:34** circumstance bitcoin cash is the **36:36** incumbent and abc is working away from **36:38** bitcoin cash **36:40** yeah which is the second second thing **36:43** that's happened **36:43** and that's where we start to get to like **36:46** we're trying to build the most efficient **36:47** model possible **36:49** and bitcoin cash has been **36:52** in what would this be like what the **36:55** third fork of three years or something **36:57** like 2017 was split from btc and then **37:00** about a year later or so is split off to **37:03** sv **37:04** and then it's like your yearly your **37:06** yearly schedule chain split kind of **37:08** thing **37:08** it just keeps on splitting and i can't **37:10** imagine that's productive right i can't **37:12** imagine it's helping bitcoin cash become **37:15** stronger and more useful and have the **37:18** community resources diverted towards **37:19** good things **37:20** i think it's been disastrous yeah i **37:22** think it's been absolutely disastrous **37:24** uh and that's why i'm really sympathetic **37:27** to the the mantra **37:28** uh there of build a stable protocol for **37:31** others to build on top of **37:32** and uh i hope and i would like to see **37:34** the the **37:36** pace of these regularly scheduled hard **37:37** forks to be slowed down or **37:39** or extended or somehow uh not **37:43** forced to happen every single six months **37:45** because that causes fighting **37:46** as to what's going to be in the hard **37:48** fork and here we are again **37:50** with uh a part of the community **37:51** disagreeing with what should be in that **37:53** hard fork **37:54** and uh yeah perhaps uh you know **37:55** splitting away from bitcoin cash so but **37:57** uh **37:59** at the other hand from a business **38:00** perspective right i'll make sure i have **38:02** all my private keys for my coins at the **38:03** time of the fork **38:05** and then i can sell my you know airdrop **38:06** for more bitcoin cash or more dash or or **38:09** whatever else i want to sell it for **38:10** or hold it if that's what i want to do **38:12** uh but uh **38:13** you have to you have to go with what the **38:16** market conditions are you can't **38:19** wish your way into you know a perfect **38:21** world now this is an interesting **38:24** uh thing to look at because bitcoin sv **38:27** i have not been a fan of for most of its **38:29** existence there's some endearing tools **38:31** built on it like twitch i believe you **38:33** joined twitch recently let's just **38:35** is that is that correct okay good so it **38:37** is you a lot of people are saying it **38:38** wasn't **38:40** yes so there's a lot of interesting **38:43** tools being built on it **38:44** and as you've mentioned a lot of bsv **38:46** type lines **38:47** as far as stable protocol that like **38:50** business built on no drama that kind of **38:52** stuff **38:53** now of course the devil in the details **38:54** with bsv **38:57** their words to be clear too so well yeah **39:00** but the devil of details is as i said **39:03** you know for **39:04** it centralized and it seems like **39:07** so first off they do have core protocol **39:10** development right like isn't it the **39:11** shatters fellow or i don't know if **39:13** there's others but **39:14** and he is on somebody's payroll and **39:16** whoever's payroll whoever is paying him **39:19** decides what gets changed which in this **39:21** case is nothing but **39:22** could be in the future so if i can put **39:25** on my conspiracy theory **39:26** yes and i'm not super knowledgeable when **39:29** it comes to bsv stuff because i haven't **39:31** been following it closely **39:32** but uh craig just decided to sue me **39:34** again a couple of days ago **39:36** so he lost the last time and had to pay **39:38** me six figures apparently **39:40** he wants to pay me even more money when **39:41** he loses again here **39:44** the best defense you know against libel **39:46** is that it's the truth **39:47** uh yes um but the the the conspiracy **39:51** theory hat here is **39:52** is and i don't know if if calvin **39:55** believes him **39:56** genuinely or if he's just pretending to **39:57** believe him because it's convenient for **39:59** a business perspective but what it seems **40:00** like is happening here with their **40:01** lawsuit **40:02** is they're going to try and say that **40:03** okay the court has even ruled **40:05** that craig is satoshi and he has to pay **40:07** for the climate estate part of the **40:09** satoshi coins **40:10** and because calvin has such a big **40:12** percent of the hash rate on bsv **40:14** uh what it looks like they're gonna do **40:15** and you can see calvin even said that **40:16** they're gonna do it uh **40:17** on twitter recently as well they're **40:19** gonna fork they're gonna hard fork bsv **40:22** again to give **40:23** craig all the satoshi coins on the bsv **40:26** chain so they can use those to pay the **40:28** climate state so craig is going to hard **40:30** fork bsv to get a million around a **40:32** million bsv coins **40:33** and if the what the price of bsv coins **40:35** now are what like 200 bucks that's 200 **40:37** million **40:38** dollars worth of bsv uh there oh my **40:41** hard fork are we speaking of a chain **40:42** split are we speaking of **40:44** just an upgrade yeah so it depends on **40:47** what the rest of the bsv community does **40:49** and i feel like there's two groups **40:50** within the bsv community **40:52** there's the right kool-aid breakers that **40:54** believe everything he says and **40:56** oh the bonded crew he promised for years **40:58** was going to show up that didn't show up **40:59** well that's you know **41:00** whatever we're going to forget about **41:01** that because that was last week and all **41:03** the other broken lies and broken **41:04** promises well forget about it chris **41:06** we're gonna we're gonna continue to **41:08** worship him you know with blind faith **41:10** and then there's the other ones that are **41:11** just like craig's **41:13** i don't want to get sued for the full **41:14** time but craig is craig **41:17** but cool technology that we want to **41:19** build cool things on and we're just **41:20** going to ignore craig and calvin and **41:21** their **41:22** idi idiocracy um **41:25** yeah so that's kind of how i view it **41:28** there and it's the question is craig **41:29** does calvin have enough hash rate to **41:31** to push that hard fork update to give **41:34** craig all the bsv satoshi coins **41:36** and the rest of the community won't be **41:37** able to muster enough hash rate to **41:38** prevent that from happening **41:40** uh and i i don't know i'm not deep **41:41** enough in bsv to have much of an opinion **41:43** on that at all **41:44** yeah so it's clearly someone is at the **41:47** top trying to **41:48** use a chain for personal gain and other **41:51** people on the chain **41:53** will see if they agree or if they will **41:55** be willing to participate or whatever **41:57** but also one thing i've noticed is **41:58** almost every single **42:00** interesting project i think maybe twitch **42:02** is the outlier but i haven't **42:04** again i'm not into people's financial **42:05** business but **42:07** how heavily rely on end chain patents **42:10** and so **42:11** yeah and a lot of software esv is closed **42:14** source **42:15** at this point not closed and the people **42:17** can't see the code but closed **42:19** in the sense that people are not allowed **42:20** to reuse the code and that's kind of **42:22** like the whole ethos of this entire **42:23** cryptocurrency ecosystem is that **42:25** it's open source take the code and make **42:27** something even better with it and bsv **42:29** is closed uh close source in that **42:31** regards **42:32** yeah so it seems like there ha there's **42:35** like the big open question of like how **42:36** do you decide **42:37** who just how do you decide who decides **42:40** the the main things **42:41** where miners are the one easy answer for **42:44** a non **42:44** like let's say non-staked or **42:46** non-mastered type coin **42:48** but miners don't seem to really seem to **42:50** be passive **42:51** but now here's another here's a color a **42:53** couple examples that i would consider **42:54** positive examples **42:56** of what one would call protocol **42:59** decentralization **43:00** development centralization since birth **43:03** so let's **43:03** let's take z cash right uh z cash **43:07** was clearly a company electric coin **43:09** company **43:10** was created to create a privacy-focused **43:14** cryptocurrency **43:15** and do all kinds of experiments and **43:17** figure out what really works well and is **43:18** also **43:19** let people use the chain it's a public **43:20** chain anyone can use it **43:22** and just they get twenty percent of the **43:25** blockboard for a while and **43:26** i know they had their own little like **43:28** re-upping conundrum **43:30** relatively recently which i didn't **43:31** follow too closely but it seems like **43:33** something was agreed upon **43:35** and that seems like you just **43:38** accepted the electric coin company is **43:39** going to build everything **43:41** and if they don't do well the price goes **43:44** down and their profits go down **43:46** if they do well it goes up and then **43:48** there's the other i the other **43:50** one is library which had i believe **43:52** something like a 50 percent pre-mine **43:54** and even though it's a decentralized **43:56** proof-of-work coin the library **43:58** incorporated **43:58** has this big pot of the money that **44:00** they're just sitting on and developing **44:02** and doing an amazing job so far it seems **44:04** and uh building a protocol anyone can **44:06** kind of use and **44:08** i believe they might have given a chunk **44:10** of that away to something called the **44:11** library foundation and as soon as i saw **44:13** a library foundation i started seeing **44:15** rumors of oh this guy got banned from **44:17** the discord oh this **44:18** you know fighting over money that no one **44:21** knows **44:21** who they control but so in the case of **44:23** library zcash they seem to be building **44:25** great products that anyone can use that **44:29** are completely open source and can be **44:30** copied and things like that **44:32** but one team controls everything as far **44:34** as development and it seems to kind of **44:36** because it's accepted sort of work out **44:38** for now **44:39** do you what do you think of that idea of **44:42** that **44:42** kind of philosophy of development **44:46** yeah it's one thing when it's clear from **44:48** the beginning uh i think when it's **44:50** changed you know **44:51** more than a decade in yeah you make a **44:53** change that major you know a decade in **44:56** i don't think and it's a contentious **44:59** split **44:59** i don't think the one making that super **45:01** major contentious chain **45:02** uh change has the right the name anymore **45:06** at that point uh whereas with you know z **45:07** cash is pretty clear and a lot of people **45:10** don't realize this really early on there **45:11** was a fork of z cash **45:13** that didn't have the classic called z **45:16** classic and so z cash has this **45:18** infrastructure fund z **45:20** classic doesn't z cash has done **45:22** significantly better than z classic **45:24** and so maybe that's an example of how **45:27** coins with the infrastructure funding **45:28** can do better **45:30** but you als but i also think part of it **45:32** is that you don't have this **45:35** you know great community around z **45:37** classic whereas you do have a pretty **45:38** strong **45:38** z cash community i think that is the **45:41** reason that z **45:43** cash has done better than z classic **45:44** because of the ifp **45:46** equivalent there or is it because of the **45:47** stronger community and uh **45:49** and certainly the stronger community **45:51** played a role in it not how much did the **45:52** ifp **45:53** play or the the funding for probably **45:55** some as well **45:56** uh but the thing that that appears makes **45:58** me so worried about the **46:00** ifp on bitcoin cash is it'll destroy the **46:02** community **46:03** and uh i think the community is just as **46:06** important if not more important than **46:08** any money to pay for for the developers **46:10** there to to work on the protocol **46:13** yeah now that's um so **46:16** the idea of an ifp type thing **46:19** from day one i mean obviously the **46:20** contention is you're coming in **46:23** halfway through the agreement or **46:25** whatever point of the way through the **46:27** agreement and you're just saying here's **46:28** it's gonna be completely different it's **46:30** like well i never agreed to this **46:32** but say it was just hey i'm starting **46:34** like **46:35** you get the time machine you go back and **46:37** get to whisper in satoshi's ears he's **46:39** starting this whole thing and **46:40** you just get to tell them like look **46:42** things are awesome **46:44** but some crazy things happen you know **46:46** stuff happened right **46:47** but stuff happened along the way uh **46:50** why don't you you know introduce a one **46:53** percent ifp **46:55** for you know whatever in the beginning **46:57** obviously you know that is kind of how **46:59** points started right because the coins **47:00** were basically free in the beginning **47:02** and then people had to go out there and **47:03** do the work to make the coins have value **47:05** by making the coins be useful in **47:07** commerce **47:08** and so that way anybody that had bitcoin **47:10** early on then becomes financially **47:11** incentivized **47:12** to make them more useful for more people **47:14** around the world in more use cases **47:16** uh and so now you know i'm not sure **47:19** exactly when **47:19** some of these abc people got involved um **47:22** but if you look at it there are plenty **47:24** of people early on in the early days **47:25** that had **47:26** cheap bitcoins that were you know **47:27** motivated to to help uh **47:29** make them more useful to the world and **47:31** fund those sorts of things **47:33** yeah so would you think that it's a good **47:36** idea to have the semi-centralized **47:38** development team of a completely **47:41** decentralized protocol **47:43** idea obviously it's working right now in **47:45** some cases but **47:46** do you think that would be a good idea **47:48** for say bitcoin to have started with **47:50** yeah i don't know um i think it's worth **47:53** a try and that's why it's cool that **47:54** there's so many different **47:55** cryptocurrencies now people can try **47:57** every different combination of of you **47:59** know infrastructure funding and **48:00** community building and this and that **48:02** and uh eventually we'll figure out which **48:04** ones work work the best so i think it's **48:06** definitely worth trying **48:08** uh i don't think it's worth pivoting 10 **48:10** years in on an existing uh **48:12** existing coin yeah and so it **48:15** this brings back to now we're going to **48:18** be a more established governance systems **48:20** and then possibly some **48:22** cool ideas for the future but because i **48:25** don't think that **48:26** the history book is written on crypto **48:28** and what works and what doesn't i think **48:29** we have like hundreds of years of **48:31** completely different systems ahead of us **48:33** but so for example **48:35** the dash system is pretty efficient at **48:38** resolving differences like when there's **48:41** a big disagreement like should we **48:43** on chain scale yes or no this way should **48:46** we adopt which **48:48** new logo should we adopt these are ones **48:50** let's do this one **48:51** that seems to be pretty efficient on **48:52** doing that and pretty efficient at **48:54** getting funding for **48:55** the one main development team and where **48:58** it becomes **48:59** a little bit less efficient what i've **49:01** you know my personal opinion over the **49:03** years watching is **49:04** when you start funding other ecosystem **49:07** projects **49:08** and there be just because whenever **49:10** you're doing some kind of a **49:12** subsidy type of a thing like a grant **49:14** system or you know you have a you're **49:16** paid from a pot of money type of thing **49:18** you kind of sever the economic **49:20** incentives of a free market **49:22** and i've noticed a inefficiency because **49:24** of this and it's not you know **49:27** with the development team of obviously **49:30** that's the big market mover **49:32** and people you know change the price **49:34** changes more what the development team **49:35** does **49:36** rather than anything else that's funded **49:37** by the ecosystem now **49:39** uh re so one issue was whatever new **49:43** dash coin coins created **49:46** are for the treasury if they don't get **49:48** issued to something they don't get **49:50** created at all **49:51** and of course based on scarcity that **49:53** means if you don't spend the whole **49:54** treasury **49:55** your funds are going to be your money as **49:57** an investor or worth more **49:59** but there hasn't been an economic signal **50:02** to connect those two **50:03** so a lot of people a lot of masterminds **50:05** have you know voted in i guess an **50:07** economically illiterate way and just try **50:09** to use up **50:09** all the treasury doesn't matter where it **50:12** goes to just because **50:13** we have free money but they're starting **50:16** to change the last few cycles have not **50:18** been completely spent they've left some **50:19** on the table **50:20** but they're um they're experimenting **50:22** with a **50:24** protocol change they would basically **50:26** make any funds not created **50:29** for the still get created but sent to **50:31** minors masternodes **50:32** so you actually get to see what you'd **50:34** save if you don't do **50:36** and i think that will really change **50:38** things on that sense that sounds **50:40** great yeah yes and then we're going to **50:43** uh i don't know too much about d cred **50:45** and that's one project i really have to **50:46** do a **50:47** deep dive on but i do know that they **50:49** have some sort of a staked governance **50:51** voting system and a treasury **50:53** but also i think that the that vote **50:57** votes on protocol changes as well and **51:00** as sort of a and not just a hey if **51:03** someone decides to ask a question we get **51:05** to decide **51:06** but every time there's like a hard fork **51:08** or whatever time there's a new thing at **51:10** you it's not just nakamoto consensus the **51:12** stakeholders have to actually **51:14** vote and okay the thing whereas with **51:16** dash right now you know the developers **51:18** create it they put out the code and the **51:20** miners usually choose to implement it **51:22** and they could **51:23** hard fork if they wanted to they just **51:24** tend to not so that's another **51:26** interesting idea **51:28** but here's the thing i was kind of **51:29** thinking because you still are trusting **51:31** the inefficiency of a development team **51:33** you still are trusting one team one **51:36** group of people one company as it were **51:38** and all the people in it is efficiently **51:40** enough run and **51:42** there is a certain level of inefficiency **51:44** they'd have to sync to **51:46** before the network would vote to revoke **51:48** their contract and add it to a new **51:51** new development team testing that limit **51:54** right now **51:54** yes well they don't have i mean the **51:57** council thing **51:58** uh i'll interject in a little bit about **52:01** the council things that's interesting **52:03** but here's an idea right what if **52:07** you could create some sort of a **52:08** decentralized github **52:10** type of a thing and **52:13** basically you would try you could track **52:16** developer **52:18** activity and basically **52:21** transaction fees there's a small split **52:25** of that would go to **52:26** developers based on their activity in **52:29** success or something like that **52:30** obviously it's a very rough idea yeah **52:32** you're the success right that's the hard **52:34** part **52:34** so yes success means like **52:37** the final product different things to **52:39** different people as well though **52:41** yeah yeah right luke junior's definition **52:43** success is going to be totally different **52:45** than you know gavin and jerusalem's **52:46** so yes but basically if you could track **52:49** uh **52:50** whatever whatever implementation gets **52:52** created whoever contributed **52:54** the most to that implementation gets a **52:57** higher percentage **52:58** of whatever and so like for example like **53:00** a one or two commit **53:02** developer doesn't really get a bunch **53:03** again this is considering this is this **53:05** implementation got **53:06** but through it sounds like a fantastic **53:08** way to generate more **53:09** infighting uh all day my commits more **53:12** important than your commit and i **53:14** committed more well your commits weren't **53:15** people was my fewer commits and people **53:17** are going to spend all day arguing **53:18** rather than building things and so i **53:20** think the profit **53:21** mechanism of the market by building **53:23** tools where people actually are **53:24** engaging in commerce to earn money i **53:26** think that's the the best way to figure **53:28** all this out and and uh **53:30** speaking of that i need to get back to **53:31** my normal work pretty soon there but uh **53:33** i'd be happy **53:34** you know part two of this again at some **53:35** point in the future yes do you have like **53:37** two minutes to discuss the council so **53:39** ifp **53:41** and now obviously on its own as abc is **53:44** the **53:45** lord regent developer team of of **53:48** whatever coin they end up **53:49** at the top of lord of the rings uh **53:52** person your character no just i'm saying **53:55** it's like they're they're **53:56** the kings of whatever chain they're on **53:58** now **53:59** they've mentioned something about it **54:02** creating like a governance board type **54:03** thing **54:04** where major mining pools and **54:08** major stakeholders would come and have a **54:10** say on what happens to that money is in **54:12** first uh it's going straight to abc so **54:14** they don't ha at that point they don't **54:16** have to **54:17** share it at all but now they're saying **54:20** we get we'll invite people to a council **54:22** and we will let them based on their **54:25** importance in the ecosystem that is **54:26** cryptographically proven by mining **54:28** whatever we will let them decide what **54:30** happens to that money **54:32** yeah i think i think this seems more **54:34** like a bribe to the miners and if you **54:35** look at it like we just talked about **54:36** earlier **54:37** the miners not wanted this authority or **54:40** this this uh **54:41** they just want to mine their coins and **54:42** be left alone uh they don't want **54:44** responsibility of governance here uh and **54:47** so if anything it seems like it's just a **54:49** way to try and bribe them and to be **54:51** honest like **54:52** okay mining is important it secures the **54:54** network the bitcoin.com wallet is by far **54:56** the most popular **54:57** bitcoin uh cash in the entire world **55:00** and electron cash is probably number two **55:03** and uh abc hates both of those projects **55:05** at this point because both of those **55:06** projects aren't uh in favor of the ifp **55:09** so you can be guaranteed that both **55:10** bitcoin.com and the electron cash **55:12** project **55:13** aren't going to be on the governance **55:14** board and they're not going to get any **55:15** of the money anyhow so it's it's the **55:17** exact **55:18** problem again and i i think you know **55:20** this is just **55:21** a tool that leads to never-ending **55:22** fighting and because it leads to **55:24** never-ending fighting **55:25** it attracts people from building and **55:27** it's something that the ecosystem **55:28** doesn't need or **55:29** and shouldn't want so now we've spent **55:32** all this time talking about fighting **55:34** your parting thought of what's the most **55:35** exciting thing you're working on right **55:37** now **55:38** i want to build cash fusion uh right **55:40** into the bitcoin.com wallet so you have **55:42** super private uh **55:44** super fast super cheap super reliable **55:46** transactions uh **55:47** you can get cash fusion already from **55:49** cashfusion.org **55:50** today desktop but i can't wait to have **55:52** it on mobile so everybody uses this **55:54** that'll give **55:55** you know once we have that and then **55:56** reusable payment codes like bitcoin cash **55:58** transactions will be in the same sort of **55:59** bulk general ballpark **56:01** of privacy is something like monero and **56:03** monero's fantastic the problem is modern **56:05** era doesn't have that big of a network **56:06** effect **56:07** uh and it's accepted around the world **56:08** and and governments have been hostile to **56:10** monero because the privacy has been at **56:12** the protocol level **56:13** whereas if we build the privacy in the **56:14** bitcoin cash uh above that **56:17** uh it'll be hard for governments to to **56:19** blame bitcoin cash you can say no the **56:20** blockchain's totally transparent you can **56:22** see every transaction **56:23** every step of the way so it'll be really **56:25** hard for governments to **56:26** to ban bitcoin cash whereas they've **56:28** already banned exchanges in certain **56:29** countries **56:30** from from listing monero so that that's **56:31** what i'm most excited about and then the **56:33** token stuff a lot of people don't **56:34** realize **56:35** tether is already on bitcoin cash you **56:36** can send and receive usdt **56:38** in your bitcoin.com wallet for a **56:39** fraction of a penny if you do that in **56:41** ethereum at the moment the fees are like **56:43** 20 dollars today **56:44** uh so bitcoin cash and bitcoin cash **56:47** based tokens work **56:48** uh right now today and bitcoin cash **56:50** token network can handle more **56:52** transactions than all of bitcoin and all **56:54** of ethereum and all the ethereum token **56:55** transactions uh **56:56** combined uh so bitcoin has tons of **56:58** scalability and then the price uh per **57:00** transaction will still be less than a **57:01** penny so **57:02** i think we'll i'm pretty excited to see **57:04** more people start using their stable **57:05** coins on top of bitcoin cash **57:07** rather than uh than some of these other **57:09** chains well fantastic this has been a **57:11** great chat thanks so much for your time **57:13** roger and yeah we'll get this out **57:14** shortly **57:15** fantastic thank you joel see everybody **57:16** next time if you like the content **57:18** subscribe **57:18** like and share uh this video from joel's **57:20** channel and check out his other videos **57:22** and other content as well **57:23** thanks for the plug **57:30** [Music]