BCH Network discussion July 1st 22 text is autogenerarated youtube subtitles read.cash would not let me post with youtube timestamps in place numbers at the beginning of lines is the timestamp in seconds notepad++ lets you double click a link in a text file in text editor of your choice search and replace '_' with 'https://youtu.be/OBbX9h8LryA?t=' _1 seems i'm talking to myself i have a speaker icon so maybe it's okay _36 so imaginary can you say something my track mic check thank you can you can _68 you hear me okay thank you we are waiting for a few more people to sign in before we _94 get started might check closer me we are still waiting for jason and colin _188 we're having a bit of a technical problem with one of our guests who's _192 melting down it's more like a it's more like a philosophical problem _200 yeah for future reference we should probably tell all all guests _206 again that they have to be on on mobile to do this _217 yeah sorry i see jason's in the chat now i'll make him speaker as well _231 okay jason i sent you an invite once you accept it you should be able to _235 speak calen may may be a little bit slow but we'll we'll wait for him to to _249 join us before we let's let's just go again if you wish hey jason hey y'all can you hear me _259 yes yeah awesome yeah sorry all right i forget that _269 some people have have not used spaces before so they maybe are not aware _273 about the the phone issue which seems like everyone has their first time _281 so yeah callan will be joining us in a moment until he gets that sorted _290 i'll just go through the intro and stuff so let's begin _297 hello everyone welcome to the july 1st 222 bitcoin cash network discussion _304 today's topic is cash tokens token primitives for a bitcoin cash _310 today's guests are jason dreissner callum cooliano imagine your username _316 john neary and i am your host chief lightning a special note before we begin _324 as you are all aware there is currently an issue with the smart bch _329 bridge to maintain i understand that it is a hot topic and _334 on everyone's mind at the moment however this is a focused discussion about _338 cash tokens and token primitives to that end _343 during the discussion i will only be allowing questions pertaining to this _346 topic at the end of the discussion we'll open up questions to all topics but please _351 keep that in mind also if anyone is listening and would _355 like to submit a question via text and not actually speaking please _361 feel free to do so via the bitcoin cash network discussions _365 telegram group and i will be monitoring and will ask questions to the panel _374 from there now that that is out of the way i am very pleased to have with us today jason dreissner _382 the author of chip2222 if anyone out there is unfamiliar with _390 the chip process please check out previous discussions we had about chip _394 itself on youtube jason welcome hi everyone how's it going _401 excellent before we dive into the details and the _407 nitty-gritty could you please dumb it down for me specifically and give us _412 a kind of eli5 version of what cache tokens and token primitives are _420 yeah so there are a lot of use cases in contracts that require a contract to be able to _431 attest to something or make a commitment to some some data _439 that other contracts need to be able to need to be able to read _446 and that's kind of what all of this is about so we we can describe we can _451 describe tokens in in the contract system as being commitments and there _456 are two different kinds of them there is the more general kind which can be _462 just an arbitrary string of bytes and that is a non-fungible token in _470 in more common terms and then there is also a specialization of that where _475 you're committing to a number only and that's like an abstract concept like _480 you the the contract may be maybe considering that number to be a ticket _485 or a share of stock or part of of equity in debt or something _493 like that and that number is a specialization of the more general _500 category and that is a fungible token so having these having these building _506 blocks that's primitive is the word that that would be commonly used for you _511 know building block in in the virtual machine having these these primitives may _518 makes it possible for us to build much more complicated interesting _524 smart contracts where the contracts can also work together to accomplish a a shared _532 goal so instead of packing all of your code into one into one one script _540 and and make it creating the address from that you can create a set a little _546 ecosystem of scripts that all work together and and _551 accomplish some some larger goal but without without massive transactions and _556 everybody everybody hitting the same contract and i probably later we'll talk a _562 little bit about the decentralized exchange design that i that i shared yesterday _569 that one actually uses i think it's eight contracts and 15 code pass or something but by _577 by splitting things up we actually get a much more a much more succinct contract in each _584 case and so transactions are actually are much very reasonable compared to if _588 you are you were sticking the whole code in each in each address to to do everything that the _596 contract needs to do so okay yeah and then of course i _601 i had a computer science degree and i felt like _606 this was explain it like i'm a fifth year of computer science _613 i was gonna say something so in my notes i wrote super basic so _620 please think think of think of the children please please help me yeah i'm five years _629 old [Laughter] like cardano you know but better because _647 it's bitcoin cash [Laughter] we'll have to try again _651 like basically slp you know like except it'll be minor validated and _655 they're awesome right so the the tokens in general _661 for what what you most users will see out of this is first it makes a lot of _666 interesting contracts very very efficient to write _671 and then and so transaction sizes are very small and then then in general _677 from the user interface perspective tokens will be supported in your wallet _681 they'll look there will be non-fungible tokens which _687 cannot be yeah sorry i didn't discuss it non-fungible tokens are tokens where _693 each unit is not fungible with any other unit of the token so if you have _698 two fungible tokens they don't they don't mix together and then the _703 you can't you can't merge them and and fungible tokens you can and they work _713 just like bitcoin cash but you can have a a an amount _718 of a fungible token that might represent something like shares or tickets or _723 stock or credit debt equity whatever hey imagine your username i heard you're _730 really good at explaining stuff so so i just want to _740 tell people about a bit of history of this proposal so people might re people might _749 have realized that bitcoin cash gained this significant significant _754 smart significantly more smart contract ability not not today not last year but all the way _761 back but all the way back in 218 when we some would say unintentionally gain the _769 power of covenants and that was when people started to get _774 more powerful versions of the [Music] control over backs of just bch coins _784 they were able to do very fancy things like you know _788 do schedule payments on-chain trustless and also delayed vaults and also a _797 basically a part of bch that were able to perpetuate itself _809 through some sort of condition that you said to them so that was improved _813 dramatically over over the years and led to any hedge and and so on and other _820 and other cool things but so one thing that the cash token does is to _827 greatly empower this again there is a reason the title was called cash token _832 primitives instead of just oh we got token now so aside from _838 so this realization was happened like a few months ago _844 and let which led to a convergence of several different proposals _852 so instead of just so we call it like fundable tokens and nfts but they are _860 much much more powerful than what people usually think of oh it's just nfts _866 it's funny jpegs and it's just fungible tokens people do _871 something and then they pump it and they don't know it's a lot more powerful than _875 that because between these different parts of pch you were they were now able to communicate _882 and you are now able to delicate this access and control _889 much much more easily so instead of say you know you have a mult you have a _896 multisig and then each person each private key will control a share of _904 the will share a control to that part of money instead _908 you can let several contracts share control to it or you can even have the tokens pass _917 around some other way and perhaps you can even carry information _922 while doing so so it is it is a very it is a very very powerful powerful _929 thing that goes way beyond what people normally think as _933 tokens that's what i want to convey yeah okay so seeing as out of all of you guys i'm _941 i'm the most smooth brain so my brain smoothness but yes _949 so to try to summarize in a very succinct way it will become possible for _959 two different tokens to talk to each other is that really basic two different contracts to talk to each _969 other two different contracts to talk to each other yep exactly _973 okay yeah that's that's the key thing and nfts nfts allow two different _977 contact contracts to talk to each other and totally fundable tokens the _982 tokens that allow you to to mix and merge and split them they will allow _988 contracts to share balance information with each other which is much more specific but much _995 more useful so you can do things like like shareholder votes and and _1000 representing other other currencies on chain or or whatever and i think i want to add a little bit _1009 of a simplification but all of these what people think of _1015 commonly when they think of as tokens is one thing and they have a very clear _1019 image of what that means and like you name pointed out _1024 these are specifically primitive so they're kind of hard to explain because _1028 they're quite low level you know kind of gears and widgets inside the bitcoin cash _1037 consensus but what they're gonna let us do is take money these these this token system is _1046 much more focused on activating the things that you can do _1051 with money and making those accessible to people so what you can do with money right now _1058 like with bitcoin cash is you can send and you can receive and you can make _1062 some very basic contracts actually you can make some _1065 quite complex contracts but there's serious limitations on it and _1071 this more or less unlocks any kind of idea where you want to take _1076 money and take assets and make them trustless and make them _1082 operate trustlessly and permissionlessly this kind of opens it up to where you _1086 can do kind of whatever you want whatever you can think of you can you _1090 can do with these if you're a developer or an app _1096 developer or an entrepreneur who wants to build a system who wants to build a _1099 ticketing system or a voting or a company shares system or whatever it _1105 is that you want to build this unlocks all of those kind of _1108 possibilities which utxo chains like bitcoin cash which are extremely _1117 highly scalable right that's the huge benefit of these chains _1122 it opens up all of that kind of programmable power that people imagine _1128 with with things like ethereum but it puts those on the utxo chain makes them extremely _1135 scalable and makes therefore right they're available to everybody like that _1139 there's not a high cost to these things they're very cheap if you read _1143 jason's thread where he explains some of the things you can do with cash tokens _1147 you know you set up a company you set up shares you make a market for your shares _1154 for you know a transaction that costs less than one u.s cent so it brings all _1162 the the money on bitcoin cash and it kind of wraps it up in all this _1168 power and gives you all this power to to do whatever it is that you imagine _1173 with it for a very accessible price that anyone in the world will hopefully be able to _1178 to afford and participate in thank you for that explanation so it _1185 sounds to me like this will unlock the potential of _1192 money in in ways that you would normally need a plethora of outside services to access _1200 it'll all just be possible simply and cheaply _1206 on on chain is that is that basically correct yeah definitely _1214 awesome so in in various people's explanations there i i heard fungible and _1221 non-fungible tokens thrown around quite a bit when people think about _1227 non-fungible tokens of course they think about you know cryptokitties or or your _1232 your nfp of of the moment but if my understanding is correct nfts didn't _1239 start out as jpegs is could somebody explain the _1245 difference between yeah what what the fungible and nonprofit i just want to _1250 point out we could do that too if you want like we can do cryptokitties now _1253 with this thing but we just want to point that out yeah _1255 that will be possible here that what is maybe maybe a little more _1260 interesting about what we call non-fungible tokens in the bitcoin cash _1264 system is that they they're they're much more likely to _1272 for a lot of applications represent things like an order receipt _1277 so that you could place an order for example in the _1280 decentralized exchange application you can place an order _1284 and the receipt you get when you place an order is what you give the exchange _1289 back later to get the tokens you bought or or the money from the tokens you sold _1295 so it's a it's a way for the the decentralized exchange to find you later _1303 for you to be able to re-authenticate and and get what you're _1307 owed after participating in the exchange because right it's a decentralized _1311 exchange you don't have an account it doesn't have any way of knowing who you _1314 are and it's not necessarily safe for it to just randomly throw money back at you _1318 it would be better if you if your wallet goes back and and asks _1323 for the money in whatever address you choose and then you can you can have even _1329 long-running activities that happen on contracts _1332 where if you have a decentralized exchange that that is running like a _1336 two-month auction well now if you if you move wallets _1341 if you switch wallets if you gave that exchange like your your your address _1347 if you need to switch wallets then now two months later if the exchange is _1351 gonna send you the money it's gonna send it to an address that you're you no _1354 longer manage you no longer really keep track of so it's much better if you _1359 can just move that receipt right to a new wallet and then two months later whenever the _1364 contract is is up your wallet can can go show your receipt and get what you're _1370 owed so there's that's an example of a an item that _1375 it doesn't even make sense to to think of there as being like some _1380 amount of a of that particular receipt there's just one unit of it and it _1387 it is not interchangeable with any other receipt they're all very different _1392 and they might they might even have different instructions on them so you _1395 know one person bought 50 tokens and one person sold 10 and they're those two _1400 you can't like put those receipts together in most cases and and have _1405 them come out with some with some balance but if you're for example _1411 represent if you're using tokens to represent some some concept like _1416 like shares of stock then it makes sense two different people issued batches _1422 of stock if i i'm issued 50 shares and somebody else has issued a hundred _1425 shares we can you know that person can sell me 25 of their shares and and _1430 actually send me those shares and then we both have 75 and and that _1436 the the shares they gave me are just as good as the ones that i had they are _1440 exactly they are exactly interchangeable then that's that's the the concept of _1446 fungible as if they're exactly interchangeable um but yeah so that either of us either us _1453 can take those shares and and use them to to vote in a shareholder _1460 shareholder election or a shareholder vote or those shares may entitle us _1466 to dividends and there's ways to pay out dividends to shareholders yeah _1472 there's a lot of there's a lot of cool contract abilities we get with this _1476 stuff so i just want to add that in many of this context it is it might be more _1483 helpful to think of tokens in the computer science sense where a piece of _1488 information is carried around and gives you access and whatnot instead of you _1493 know casino tokens where it's just being used to straight up represents _1499 something it represents something else of value yeah exactly _1506 we're almost it's almost a disservice if you're trying to think of the way _1510 that these non-functional tokens work if you're trying to like match them up with _1514 how nft is used in the in like popular culture crypto culture _1522 you won't you won't see the most important use cases _1527 yes possibly some of the things that nfts are currently kind of famous for _1531 will be will be possible and and could be useful but i i expect _1538 things like order receipts and refunds and you know vote contents and things like that i _1546 expect will be much more much more interesting in the in the _1551 very long term applications when we have you know significant decentralized _1555 exchanges and prediction markets and things like that all happening on shane _1560 can i add something to this so what you're saying so so basically right now money the money we _1566 have on chain is is basically only has like two two or three different _1571 properties it goes with like the value of the like when you get sent some money right _1575 you get sent like what's internally called like a coin or _1579 a utxo right and it just has like an amount that's it pretty much _1585 and and maybe it has a hash of the previous transaction so there's like two _1588 pieces of data that goes with your money so now we can add more data to your _1593 money so then that just means that we can add more state to what can happen on _1597 chain that's like sort of the the summary of it i mean it unlocks just _1601 having more state and any kind of computer science and context just _1605 unlocks possibilities like you know like ethereum has a different _1609 approach to this they have like state variables that go with your account or _1612 whatever and this will be state variables that can go with your money _1616 directly with your utxos but and it just unlocks possibilities i don't know if that helps _1622 oh yes that helps i'm interested in in how this would be _1626 applied to the real world so the first thing that popped into my head _1631 when jason's talking about receipts would be like _1634 coupons so you have a coupon that you receive as a gift for making _1641 some purchase and because it is an nft that means that you could send it to a _1650 different wallet of your own but you could also sell it on some kind of _1654 aftermarket is that an example of something that would be _1658 possible exactly and depending on exactly what the coupon represents _1665 you may that it may be an nfc or it might actually be a fungal token you _1670 you could you could have if the coupon has some sort of balance and that's all _1674 it is like if if the coupon entitles you to two 50 50 rides at the fair _1682 you can send 20 of those to somebody else and that's perfectly reasonable _1686 then that's what a fungible token would be for and if the the coupon _1692 instead entitles you to some to some you know particular behavior _1697 of a a smart contract or whatever so maybe a good example actually is the _1705 decentralized exchange has a liquidity provider it's somebody _1709 who puts money in and that that money is is used to be the other side of the _1715 trade so like if you want to buy 50 tokens but nobody else wants to sell you tokens _1720 at this particular moment the liquidity provider will step in and say like and _1724 say i i'll be the seller and i have i have all these tokens and all this money _1728 and i match it up with with with what people want _1733 the liquidity provider gets a little bit of a fee from providing that service _1738 so the liquidity provider actually with the the decentralized exchange design i _1744 posted yesterday the liquidity provider is represented with a non-fungible token so _1751 the ownership in a sense of the liquidity provider can be can be transferred between wallets _1759 very simply it's it's just a non-fungible token it doesn't have a balance of any sort it _1767 doesn't represent a number you can't split the ownership into two in that _1772 part you move it you move it atomically between between wallets and _1778 then you use that token to identify yourself to the exchange to withdraw _1782 your fees to withdraw the money you made for being a liquidity provider _1786 and and that gives you really great you do it to the contract yeah right _1792 that's something your your wallet would be able to do and then from there because _1799 what what it really means is that that is the point where we can where we can build a different _1807 contracts that work together efficiently so the the exchange is _1812 actually designed such that the liquidity provider is represented by an _1816 nft but what that means is that you could give that nft to a different _1821 contract to a different smart contract where that that different smart contract _1826 does all of the interaction with the exchange itself _1831 and that smart contract issues shares so that you can have _1836 thousands of people who are part of the liquidity provider but the the the _1841 primary exchange contract doesn't need to know anything about how those _1845 shareholders have arranged to their affairs and so it makes it where we can break _1850 down these these very complex designs into much more _1854 easy to understand atomic pieces where and you can you can deploy them one at a _1860 time or separately and there there could be there could be a dozen different _1864 smart contracts that are that are popularly used to interact with this _1869 decentralized exchange's design all the decentralized exchange cares _1873 about is that there is a liquidity provider and it can identify them _1878 so you can give that liquidity provider non-fungible token to any of these _1884 these more interesting designs and and you could have _1887 it what that'll amount to is there'll probably be some liquidity provider management _1894 contract designs where they issue shares there will probably be some _1899 designs where they are [Music] you know interesting multi-signature _1906 constructions where they they fall back after 30 days just some other _1911 behavior or some yeah there are a number of there are a number of _1919 organizational structures you can build to control that liquidity provider _1925 nft but because we because we represent the idea of being a liquidity provider with _1933 that nft that's a clean break where you can add your own your own code _1940 to the to the specific functioning of how of how the exchange works when you _1947 when you deployed it does that make sense today _1952 this is all on chain right like this is not yes yes contract logic on chain like like the _1958 way theorem works right right the and in our case it's by using these tokens allows us to get _1969 much more succinct contract designs because in a lot of cases _1978 on some of the account based chains contracts end up being _1982 these giant blobs of code that you that you push up to the chair you upload _1988 to the chain sort of and it costs a ton of money to to put the contract on _1993 the chain so that's a that's a big a big disruption for developers and _2000 then everybody executes functions on that contract in our case _2007 each of the the functions that people execute end up being their own tiny _2013 contract that is just vanishingly cheap to to put on chain _2018 and we don't even have a concept of of uploading contracts instead every _2023 time your wallet makes a transaction it uploads a new set of contracts so _2028 uploading contracts in in bitcoin cash is of course so cheap that that _2034 most people don't realize it has a price and the cost of the transaction itself the _2041 whole transaction is still less than a a a fraction of a penny of a u.s cent _2049 so much what we get out of having this these these tokens is contracts that are _2058 we get the same the same power you you can you can get in these account based _2063 systems developers can can build contracts and decentralized applications _2069 that are that are just as powerful as with the these account based chains that's _2074 ethereum and things that are based on the evm and there's a few others like _2078 that developers can get that same kind of power except we we do not _2087 we don't forfeit bitcoin cash's superior scalability and and lower fees _2092 there hey i want to bring up a specific point there but first i just want to give a _2098 quick answer to i've had several people ask the question of slp tokens what's _2103 different and i just wanted to give a quick answer to that the the key _2107 difference here is that slp tokens can't participate as a first kind of _2116 fully participating entities in in smart contracts so they aren't able to be validated by minors there's a bunch _2125 of things that limit them in smart contracts so they won't actually be able to do very much _2133 due to the way that they are due to the way that they work so slp _2140 tokens actually it to think of it more slp tokens _2147 the current slp tokens can't be seen by contracts they can't they have no way _2152 of telling that they're looking at an slp token and that's where they they _2157 become much less useful for for contract applications but we should all _2161 guarantee you leave it even if you can see it there's no guarantee it's valid _2164 right any contract you don't look at a whole bag it's just it's just noise on the chain _2169 really i mean it could be it could be created by anybody it could be invalid _2173 yep but we should also distinguish that that's for slp 1.0 sop _2179 1.0 is the version specified and there's a very good chance that _2183 we will have a slp 2.0 that uses this stuff under the hood and so from an _2189 slp if you're using slp tokens from that perspective um there's definitely a there's definitely _2198 a migration path that that should be pretty reasonable and we may end up _2204 still calling a a token standard that is more full maybe i should describe _2210 so the cash tokens chip and the stuff we're talking about is very very low _2215 level and slp also provides it is a is a is a somewhat higher level _2223 standard that describes things like best practices and has specific software _2228 implementations and and basically you know procedures for what what should be _2232 what should be done when you're issuing a new token _2236 things like that we are not attempting to standardize with this _2240 with this cash tokens chip we're just the gas tokens chip is the _2245 is the bare minimum to get tokens in the consensus layer for bitcoin cash _2251 and other standards like slp would be great to to standardize _2258 very industry specific things like how how do we actually issue stock on chain _2263 if you're a company and what you know what's the procedure what what _2269 kind of basic usage of the underlying tokens should happen what happens if _2275 the company issues more shares what happens if the company needs to _2279 transition to a different internal identifier on the chain there's _2284 lots of things that that are kind of edge cases that are very industry _2289 specific which need to be need to be thought about for that industry _2293 tickets are another great example where it would it would be certainly _2298 beneficial for us to have a a standard for how to issue tickets _2304 and and when i i mean you know not just general admission _2308 kind of tickets but like you know there are vip passes and backstage _2319 thank you for anyone else or was it just can you hear me sorry there you go _2324 he broke up for me too am i back in _2330 yeah i can do it right so a standard that that _2335 helps well just a standard for how tickets should be issued on chain so that all of _2342 the wallets in the bitcoin cash space can simply support the ticket standard _2346 or you know there will be a couple maybe a couple ticket standards possibly _2350 hopefully we can we can there will be one that will be the obvious one and _2354 we can kind of consolidate on it on a a good way to to handle that and then _2359 various wallets can support holding tickets in your wallet or or _2366 trading them on exchanges that are designed decentralize these changes _2370 like the one posted yesterday that are designed for _2375 for making it easy to buy and sell those tickets on on just straight in your _2380 wallet yeah there are a number of things that are that are very _2384 application specific there that it would be way way beyond the scope of the cash _2389 tokens chip to try to specify but standards like slp _2396 we may end up with an slp ticket standard is what i mean to say _2401 so if you're looking if you you're looking back at this conversation from a _2406 year from now and you're like i'm using slp tokens still _2409 that's because hopefully we have figured out how to _2414 upgrade them to to support some of this contract ability thank you that's a much better _2422 explanation than i gave so good i wanna go all the way back _2427 though to the the maybe i think very important point you _2433 were talking about scaling and um how these tokens you know take advantage _2439 of utxo and it's very scalable but on the flip side right i have _2444 heard concern where people say look they don't put it in these terms but _2450 look send and receive is good enough right for money _2454 and this is a kind of perspective with these tokens that look _2459 you need a whole economy you need all kinds of contracts and agreements and ways of _2466 interacting with money for it to be really useful and to create an actual _2470 economy at least that's how i see it but could you speak to _2476 the idea that you know what's the risk of this destroying the scalability of _2480 bitcoin cash or of this you know taking up all the all the all _2485 the block space in trivial things that aren't very _2489 important and that it harms the the use case of of bitcoin cash _2495 as money could could you kind of speak to that like whether this affects that or not _2500 yeah that's a good question and it's definitely important to _2503 answer the in general scalability wise bitcoin cash is is very well designed for scalability _2515 and this is a this tote this strategy of implementing tokens is a very natural _2529 fit for how bitcoin cash scales so that technically if we're just talking about _2534 purely technically tokens are going to look like just an almost a new kind of _2542 address they are they have about the same impact as the fact that people can use pay to _2550 script hash for example so you can you can send money to the hash of a contract _2555 and that allows you to have addresses that work a little _2560 differently but that's that's how we got more advanced multi-sig wallets and _2565 and better security wallets so in in that sense scaling wise and purely _2572 technically um this this looks a little bit like a new kind of address as for the kind of _2579 the the bigger question of why do we need anything but send and _2584 receive um there are a lot of a lot of complex interactions economic interactions out _2591 there that are not send and receive and they use things other than just the base _2596 currency um we've talked about a lot here where you know stock equity tickets _2602 things like that late loyalty points gif includes store stored credit _2610 gift cards things like that there are a lot of use cases that _2617 cannot be in let's say in the traditional world the use case _2626 of a in traditional finance many of these these use cases stock tickets et cetera are _2639 are enforced by a number of of various institutions that _2645 we cannot use to enforce activity on the on the chain that's probably a little _2655 more complicated but yeah we um if we want to have a if we want to have _2667 a money that is not centrally controlled if you you know a court can't a court _2673 can't demand that the chain take some money from one address and _2677 move it to another address we don't have a way of even coming to a consensus on _2682 on what the court is on chain there's no way for us to there's no way for us to _2687 be like okay well that's a legitimate request anyone could could pretend to _2691 be a court and just ask the chain to do it and and now the chain has to figure _2695 out what is what is a legitimate authority and what is not and and people _2700 individual humans would disagree about that so it's much more unreasonable to try _2704 to think we could do that with with purely technical solutions but this _2708 allows us instead of relying on these kind of valuable human institutions to _2713 go ahead and set the rules properly as a contract that the _2718 chain already understands and instead of having _2725 a long expensive complicated process for enforcing how how this exchange _2732 should work i mean let's let's take the the very concrete example of the _2735 exchange from yesterday where we talked about the _2738 decentralized exchange gedx is the name um that is a a set of fixed contracts that _2747 specify exactly how a a fully functional market works for a _2754 token so you can when you go to to be if you're going to be an event an _2758 organizer for an event you can create create your your tickets for your event _2765 and you can at the same time also putting put up a a marketplace for them _2770 so that your attendees can can sell their tickets if they realize _2774 they can't go and other people can buy them easily and it can show up in your _2777 wallet if your if your wallet supports this ticket standard you know lots of _2782 lots of useful user features there but the exchange _2788 is all is all written in code on shame so um there is there's no way _2798 it's actually impossible for you to for you to defraud the exchange or _2803 for the exchange to run away with your tickets or your money the exchange _2808 literally cannot take your money because it is actually non-custo like _2812 it's actually non-custodial it's the word for it's actually in your own _2816 wallet the money stays in your wallet or in this case you you deposit and _2822 deposit it in a special kind of address that the exchange can do what it's _2826 programmed to be allowed to do but it can't do something else _2831 so you actually there's no way for the exchange to just run away with your _2834 money and and so there's actually not even a need for you to be able to go in _2839 and talk to an authority of some kind to go get your money back because the you _2844 know your your wallet can tell exactly the code of the exchange _2849 and it can be a very common you know it's only a a few hundred bytes really _2855 a few hundred characters total code and we your wallet can can see what that _2863 whole interaction is is going to look like and it will always be _2868 executed that way properly and so we get _2873 we get some of these features that that are you you actually cannot use _2878 decentralized money for some of these use cases unless you have some sort of recourse for if they run _2886 away with your money and so if we want to have a money _2890 that is censorship resistant and isn't isn't centrally issued by a _2895 central bank it doesn't have an authority who can who can arbitrarily _2899 inflate or or arbitrarily take people's money and give it to other people if _2904 you want to have a system that works that way you have to have _2909 and you want it to work for somebody for some of these use cases _2913 that where where people what people understand is money _2917 typically works if you want it to work for these use cases you actually have to _2921 have support for it in the chain we we can't even use _2926 are our decentralized money for some of for some even just you know _2932 traditional stocks or or ticket exchange things like that _2940 if you don't have these facilities in the chain itself so it sounds to me there's a _2949 lot to unpack here so it sounds to me like basically this would greatly expand the _2957 programmable properties of of bitcoin cash and would allow for _2965 actually truly decentralized exchanges and something for the example that you _2971 gave which is like a decentralized ticketmaster for example _2976 so an event organizer could sell their tickets and it would be all just on the _2982 market and people would be free to buy and sell and trade sorry you name _2987 you you wanted to say something there right so right so i so i just want to address _2994 more closely the question of whether it would hinder or enhance the _3001 ability of bitcoin cash to act as money so on a so i want to address it from two _3006 directions one is the positive one which is that if our focus is to be money we must look at _3013 what modern money actually looks like instead of just you know pieces of _3018 paper cash which we did which we do really well already and we can _3024 send money to people and receive money to people and that we do excellently but _3030 mob in so this is an argument for smart contracts in general and not just cash _3036 tokens all the advanced capabilities are actually needed to be competitive as _3042 modern money like you as a normal person okay imagine if _3048 you have dollars and you can't open share accounts with your dollars that _3053 have share control they will look at you like wow what a conscious thing to _3064 think of why would i want to lose that ability and so on and so forth you know _3068 there's automatic payments there's all sorts of things that happens in the _3073 trusted world that if we want to be competitive with we what we would want _3079 to be able to do some or many of those things trustlessly so that is from _3085 the positive direction and from the other end would it hinder our existing _3090 capability so there were many past token proposals _3097 that were many past token proposals that focuses more on _3104 that have different focuses of of their own so if you look at them they _3111 sometimes and often do fans do very fancy things that _3118 are i would say maybe not that well considered that you know do like _3125 global variables or global confidence that may that has to re that runs the _3131 risk of getting into stable scalability so castle incest none of that _3135 and also you would also need to look at the case of backwards _3141 compatibility like okay if i have existing software i send and _3146 receive coins just fine will cash tokens get in the way and _3153 make me want to rewrite my software and maybe drop support from bitcoin cash _3157 well cash tokens does not do that so it will not be it will not be a problem in this case _3163 people can people who don't want cash tokens they don't want to think about it _3168 can just ignore it completely so that is a very beautiful thing that is not _3174 present in some other token and non-token proposals before some of _3181 them you know you will have to debate extensively okay is this actually _3187 worth the regression in adoption like because that is a very painful thing for _3194 bitcoin cash people to swallow cash token does not have that problem so _3200 from this angle cash tokens also does not get in the way whatsoever of _3206 existing use cases i think it is a very important thing to bring up yep _3212 can i also chime in on the scalability question a little bit i feel like it was _3215 it wasn't fully answered so i would say the short honest answer is yes it does _3220 it would have some small impact on scalability because you're adding _3226 a small amount of data and also you're adding some more data basically _3231 potentially to the utxo set but it's very small it's basically _3237 conceptually you're adding like you have now like with utxo you have value like _3241 the amount like the amount of bch you got sent you're going to be adding potentially _3245 optionally another piece of metadata which is like the token data which let's say like _3250 40 bytes or something and that's optional and so that's just that's another that's _3254 a data footprint thing and then to actually execute contracts _3258 they're about they're the same as a p2sh so it's not like you're adding an _3262 evm turing machine script interpreter it's just a p2sh _3266 contract you would be executing if you're doing contracts with the token _3270 you don't even have to do contracts with the token you could just send it _3274 to somebody else and that's that's so it is there is a non-zero cost in _3279 terms of execution and data but it's it's very minor it's not _3283 like a fundamentally paradigm shift changing thing that's going to make bch _3288 super slow you know conceptually it's the equivalent of just sending more a little _3292 bit more traffic on chain like sending like if you send someone right now you _3296 can send them like one utxo you'd be sending in the _3299 equivalent of two maybe if you're doing tokens _3305 it's it's not a a paradigm shifting cost thing you know like _3311 it doesn't change the way pch is structured in a fundamental level at all _3315 it's just a little bit more data you might be pushing around but it's not _3317 even a lot of data so that's sort of to answer it honestly _3321 we should and we should clarify that the extra data is if if the user uses _3328 it it's not adding extra data to these normal transactions so the only way it _3332 could possibly add extra data as if you have new more users _3335 yeah yeah i mean if you're using it so it's optional it's like you don't pay _3338 for your use basically yeah and in general we don't consider usage to be a _3342 bad thing on bitcoin cash so just so to use an analogy that i just _3349 made up so imagine plain old bitcoin cash on p2ph _3354 as pieces of paper cash previously we enlarged the op _3361 return size and our return can be thought of you know you are clipping you _3365 are clipping little pieces of tags onto the paper cache and with cash _3372 tokens you can now in addition you can now also scribble _3377 things on that piece of paper cache that is carried over but this _3383 neat little things do not change the fact that it is pieces of paper cache _3387 that you can still stack and put in your wallet they do not fundamentally _3392 change the pieces of paper into you know say a robot that is _3398 very obvious carry around yeah yeah a pile of bricks _3402 you know let bars no they're still it's the same fundamental like little little _3407 conceptual little pieces of of things that you're transferring _3411 around and we should add that if you scribble on a bill _3416 the person who gets it next can just easily just erase that completely so _3420 it's not you're not permanently defacing the bill _3424 if we want to use the analogy policy you could always destroy tokens yeah they _3428 disappear the same way utxos disappear once you spend them right you can you _3431 can merge them together you can take all the coins in your wallet and make them _3434 into one coin please be very careful in in your _3438 country or jurisdiction defacing money in the face of the king or queen could _3442 it be punishable by various things that in my country this is why we this _3450 is what's coming up this is why we we had a revolution i'm speaking _3456 sorry john go ahead are you sure i have i have a whole _3460 different can of worms to open up then then my my question is probably _3465 very simple so please wait a moment i'll come back to you _3468 so sorry the the question on everyone's mind about about upgrades and obviously if _3476 if this goes through next year for next year's upgrade is will it break _3482 stuff so obviously everything's just going to stop working that's the plan no no no no no it _3490 actually won't but yeah i'll let you continue yeah so obviously nodes need to be _3494 upgraded anyway but uh wallets and other services developed on bitcoin cash _3500 would they need to upgrade or or would they just ignore the _3504 data they could ignore it just answer it _3508 yeah so this is this proposal comes after if anybody heard of the _3514 proposal from from two years ago the pmb3 proposal _3520 much of this proposal is is informed by how how do we make this stuff work _3525 without impacting existing wallets at all so that this it is specifically _3530 designed to not impact existing wallets or indexers existing indexers can _3536 also ignore ignorecast the only software in the ecosystem that actually _3541 needs to update is full nodes and miners so full nodes are are the _3548 pieces of software run by miners and then also they're typically run by by _3554 businesses in the space that need a objective view of their own of the of _3558 the network so the only pieces of software that actually must be updated _3563 will be node implementations indexers will probably want to update _3568 because there's lots of and indexers are pieces of software that that do _3573 analysis about the chain and tell you more interesting things than just _3577 whether or not a block is valid and no some node implementations have _3582 built-in indexing systems where you can look up interesting things like who has _3586 what balances and how oh sorry what addresses have what balances and you _3591 know which addresses have have balances larger than this amount and etc _3596 so that's indexing software typically will want to to add support _3602 for cash for cash tokens but the the upgrade is is specifically designed _3610 so that they can fully ignore it and and won't notice it at all _3615 and then while it's of course everything continues to work exactly as _3619 normal wallets will probably want to upgrade because people will probably _3623 want to use these tokens and decentralized exchanges and _3626 prediction markets and things like that however existing wallets can just _3631 continue doing exactly what they're doing and not update in fact we we have _3638 included a a a type bit for the bitcoin cash address format so that your _3648 wallet can indicate whether or not it's whether or not it's updated to support _3653 tokens yet and the nice thing about bitcoin cash's address system _3658 actually is many of these things what have been planned for for years so we we _3663 have a a a very easy way of indicating in the address itself so your wallet will _3670 be able to if you're using an old wallet the old wallet will will tell you _3674 that this is a this is an address with a version it doesn't understand yet _3680 and continue on going on with merry way but existing wallets can actually add _3689 support with the existing address format um with all of the existing libraries for _3696 the existing programming libraries for the bitcoin cash address format all _3701 of them support being able to just include this this bit already so _3706 there's been a lot of previous work that actually makes this very very easy _3710 and from you from a user's perspective if you're using wall that's not been _3715 updated to support tokens or they you know they don't want to it'll work _3718 it'll work exactly as you expect and other users if they try to send you _3723 money to your try to send you tokens to an address that is produced by that _3727 wallet your wallet will show an address that that the token _3732 supporting wallet will no doesn't support tokens so this token supporting _3736 wallet won't accidentally send tokens to a to a wallet that doesn't understand it _3741 yet so there's lots of some safety stories i just want to put in a tldr _3749 basically if you don't like it you can ignore it indefinitely and nothing bad _3756 would happen to you whatsoever but you might like it so existing everything even if you _3763 never upgraded electron cash like you know from now until 10 years from now _3766 theoretically would just continue to work you just can't you don't see tokens _3769 they're not visible to you and you can't receive them but _3773 and you can't send them but otherwise existing software will work _3777 everything looks the same as long as you know you just won't see the new stuff _3781 this is a huge example just from a practical perspective of the difference _3785 with slp where slp is not really part of consensus so _3790 you could have a token and then just accidentally burn it right that kind of _3794 thing would never happen it's impossible to happen with this one you can't even _3798 accidentally use it right yeah you can't burn it because you have to sort of sign _3802 differently if you have a token so you have to like be aware of it yeah you _3805 can't even bring these and so there's no way to describe a _3808 wallet it's not going to interfere with your wallet it's not going to cause any _3813 problems if somebody sends you something it's not going to be like oh i don't _3817 have to be careful with this wallet or something like that which is something _3820 people have faced with slp so all right i love this slp but this just goes so _3825 far beyond that it's it's great right cheap i need tonight can i go on to my _3830 other point yes you're gonna say something completely different as far as _3835 topics go so let's let's shift well it was completely different and _3840 then you brought up the chip process and then now it's not so unique snowflake _3844 snowflake anymore so one thing i want to bring up is _3850 the chip process right so some people listening to this might say wait a _3854 minute we're talking about cash tokens as if it's like already _3859 there right it's already part of bitcoin cash and yes we are talking about it _3863 that way but i want to say very clearly right this is not something that's 10 _3869 established if you read the chip process and you follow the chip process which is _3876 what all the consensus development has been following right there's stages _3881 there's timelines there's milestones you have to reach and could i ask maybe _3890 imagine a username or jason i don't know who's the the perfect person but to _3895 talk about where is this in the chip process and you know how far _3901 has it gone how much feedback has it has it grabbed from from stakeholders in the bitcoin cash _3910 ecosystem as to whether it's actually going to happen _3913 or not so so right now we have so right now where it is is that the technical _3922 specifications are almost entirely finalized some people might have noticed that jason has put _3929 out a a put out a pretty much final version we will just scrutinize it and do some bug _3936 fixing around it perhaps to get it to get it to shape _3941 and then there is a testable version that a callan has written that callan has _3948 written so that is very powerful we have gone we have gone around _3954 and got a preliminary interest from from the note from some for many of the node _3964 implementations um news and even bchd has shown some preliminary interest in it so there _3974 is no there is no straight out opposition from that from that front _3979 and then there are also preliminary interest from developers and _3987 in terms of stakeholders we are reaching out so far we have _3993 so so far we have got only positive feedback but we can definitely do more _3998 and we are going to we are going to do more outreach in the coming weeks and months _4007 thank you very much if i understand correctly this would need to be finalized by _4013 november is that correct november is when there is there must be _4019 a hard commit and a piece of usable software for made _4024 being released so that is the hardest cutoff line yeah but usable _4032 software i'm just that on the node side on the consensus layer side no not like _4036 the whole ecosystem doesn't have to be built by mcdonald's _4042 it is like it is a convenient place to just you know to just cut it and say _4047 well this is it it is a you know other other lines are more difficult to _4052 enforce this line is yeah it's just slightly locked this layer in the node _4056 in the full nodes on november yes that's the deadline which we which you're going _4060 to need you know if consuming the whole ecosystem adopts this like the node _4064 implementation is like 95 or 99 there already on bitcoin cash node _4069 so yeah i just want to point that out i want to mention also that this oh go _4076 ahead jason sorry oh yeah i was just going to say that _4080 yeah and some other note implementations i think that _4084 there are already some small patches for lib off one of the libraries that of _4088 course is also implemented so a lot of that is that will probably be able to _4094 happen very quickly and then also we should note that there will be a test _4097 net um that activates this proposal and and possibly some of the others that people _4103 are that that are are under consideration um here in the next few months so that _4110 developers can can make sure that everybody in the ecosystem can make sure _4113 that their software is is is cooperating properly on that _4120 test net for for hopefully a few months before november _4123 so we're very sure about things yeah like that's happened before november too _4127 just so we can catch any bugs if there are any but _4130 hopefully there aren't any yeah and i i what i wanted to mention is _4135 that just this is not about cash tokens specifically right this is about the _4140 chip process but just that it it has been quite amazing _4145 it's enabled us to have this environment where things keep _4150 moving forward collaboration happens we're discussing _4155 upgrades more than one year in the future right we're talking way into the future _4160 whereas in the past we were like bike shedding in the last _4164 month before upgrade or something like some awful situation where where _4169 you know we'd last minute be providing software to exchanges and _4173 miners and so forth so this is done when we're talking about _4176 november right november is the cutoff for these implementations and agreement to _4183 exist but then the upgrade doesn't happen until may right so there's six months _4189 for for the upgrade to actually happen and for for people to say okay well _4194 i don't want to participate in that so i'm not going to do anything fine _4198 or you can you know upgrade and say oh i want i want to make an app _4203 that uses these tokens to to create and a decentralized ticket master or _4207 whatever it is you have six months to do that right i i i love it i just _4212 wanted to say a little bit of praise for the yeah it's very cool that we can we can _4218 now have it's possible to have some lead time where people know that something is going to be _4225 activated but it is not activated yet it means that developers can work on cool _4230 things that can launch on launch day and i just want to comment on the _4237 can you hear me oh yeah i just want to like i just felt it's very collaborative _4240 like there's no like central authority like rejecting you know you sort of _4244 discuss ideas and if they make sense we do them i don't know it seems like it's it's a _4249 i also want to praise the chip process it's been very healthy _4253 actually oh actually on that on that point i wanted to say so there's a _4259 on the surface competing specification right there's a competing _4265 chip that's the group tokens that's the owner yes a guy named bca full _4272 name is bitcoin cash autist but i'll just go on bca so _4277 bca owns this and has been developing it a lot and _4281 and instead of the chip processes turning into like a competition and a _4285 toxic kind of competition it's actually turned into a _4293 collaboration right now a large part of that is just due to jason and bitcoin _4298 and bca being just good people and then collaborative and _4304 being excited about finding the best possible way to do things but that _4309 hasn't happened before right this is something quite unique and i love to see it _4315 these two proposals have instead of like turning into a toxic competition they they _4321 collaborate they they feed off of each other and turn _4325 one idea they adopt the idea into the other proposal and both proposals have _4330 just continuously improved over time and they're getting like optimized at _4335 this point right like the my new details are getting into kind of perfection so _4340 i don't know i i love seeing it and bitcoin cash bca _4345 he had one message he said i asked him to say like could you say something _4349 about cash tokens right the the per se competing proposal and he said _4356 yeah i can't wait for the test net what was his comment when i asked him _4360 yes it's funny like this actually descends from like the bu proposal i think _4366 last year and then so there were criticisms of the bu proposal right and then sort of _4372 the the stuff we're working on now these two competing proposals that you're _4375 talking about they descend from that and so that's just another indication of the _4378 iterative process where there was a proposal people you know _4381 weren't super happy about it they wanted to modify it and these two other _4384 proposals came out that sort of are very similar but they're cousins of each _4387 other and now we're all even the people you know even the people that lost out let's _4392 say like bca you might say lost out but he didn't really lose out because _4395 the proposal is very similar he's really excited too yeah like you said _4399 i mean because it's been very iterative and it sort of had a natural evolution _4402 where people's thoughts and ideas were taken into account if they made sense _4406 and if they hadn't you know made sense then they were ignored but that's fine _4410 so yeah it's been it's been good it's been very healthy _4413 yeah so this is so i also want to emphasize that this is the advantage of _4420 both doing things in the open and having a lot of lead time so that you know this _4425 kind of consensus building exercises can happen and you in the end you get the _4430 best possible things given your resources and talent instead of you know _4435 if you have a thing that you unleash three months before activation and _4441 then and then people start throwing what to throwing money at each other because it _4446 becomes a life or death situation and then okay i specifically don't want this _4451 because of because of thing x or y and then there is there is no room to fix _4456 it there is no time to fix it everyone is scrambling and then _4460 and then you know it becomes a struggle it becomes a existential struggle of okay _4468 this thing must go through or this thing must not go through and holy crap so _4474 yeah we try to avoid that as much as possible and we are having some _4478 successes yeah yeah that's absolutely fantastic i love to _4488 hear it i love to hear the progress i love to hear how _4493 there there have not been any social issues that have not been _4499 a roadblock to success here that's really fantastic _4505 it's already been about an hour i would like to open up the floor to _4510 questions from the audience but before i do is there any other _4514 comments or things that the panel would like to share with the group _4520 i i just want to say one thing so to to be totally honest like coming _4525 into the whole tokens thing i was an extreme skeptic and i thought _4532 you know okay these things kind of sound neat but you know let's not screw up _4539 the money behavior of bitcoin cash and the properties of bitcoin cash that make it _4546 very good money and you know especially scalability right _4552 like the whole point is to to reach everybody in the world and to help _4555 everybody in the world and make it available for to for for everybody so _4564 i was very skeptical at the beginning but after reading understanding _4569 listening debating and desperately trying to understand _4575 what these guys are able to to talk about i got the picture right that this _4581 enables not just sending and receiving this enables an actual economy _4589 and i kind of became convinced that if you don't have an actual economy you _4594 don't have money and if you don't have an economy _4597 that's permissionless and trustless in the way that bitcoin cash is _4604 you're not really achieving a revolution right _4608 so just just to say i started as an extreme skeptic but at the end of the process i _4614 i thought wait a minute this is actually achieving something that that makes _4618 bitcoin cash's money better than it was before not just an _4623 add-on to it that's really well said man can i agree _4627 with you i just want to say i have exact same position like i started as an _4630 extreme spec skeptic for the reasons you outlined just oh my god we're adding _4634 weight to the chain what's going on and i realize that the weight we're _4637 adding is very minor very efficient and the the use cases and the _4642 financial tools it unlocks permissionlessly are just amazing i mean _4646 you're getting so much for so little cost and the cost is negligible if you _4649 don't use it and and let me just double down again _4653 triple down on this for anybody who knows callan you'll know _4659 how powerful that statement just was yeah i mean i'm a really because i'm a _4664 performance nazi like i'm really i'm like an ultra conservative i'm like _4668 ultra right wing when it comes to performance stuff i just don't want things to break i want _4672 them to get faster i don't want things to get slower or heavier _4675 so the fact that i was impressed by by how lightweight this is and how powerful _4678 it is so yeah thanks hard to argue with that endorsement _4686 does anyone else on the panel have a final final statement before we open up _4689 the questions speaking of forever hold your piece all right in that case _4701 i would like to open up the floor to the audience does anyone have any _4706 questions it looks like jerry from bitcoin bay has requested i can add him here _4716 i don't see it i've added him as a speaker okay am i on hey you are now _4738 yeah thanks everyone for this panel discussion i just have a two-part question _4746 don't tie hand-in-hand together one is for the cash tokens and all the _4752 stuff are there gonna be plans for like simple developer tools who for _4758 people let's say you know like you know entry-level developers who just want to _4761 get into the space are there going to be like simple tools to help them build _4765 these kinds of and then number two the question was you know obviously we're talking _4772 about tokens nfts and whatnot and you know like slp i feel like _4782 regardless of the the recent coin flex and the smart bch stuff but it does _4787 seem like a lot of trend has been moving away from the slp infrastructure to the _4792 smart bch given that you know how the the chain is you know going a little bit messy times _4799 and whatnot like do you think you know the slp tokens you know could use a bit more _4807 love just for this one year waits in between the time _4811 for the cash token to be released i can speak to the first one so _4821 tools for developers definitely the the decentralized exchange that was the _4829 design that was published yesterday is is using some new tools that that are _4833 still being built that i'm working on and hopefully other people will also _4838 work on work on tooling if you're interested in that if anybody is _4842 interested in getting getting into that space and and building things with cash _4846 tokens definitely join the cash token dev telegram group and there are a couple _4853 other development telegram groups you can find there bit off ide is the _4859 is the tool that the there's a development environment _4864 that the decentralized exchange published yesterday is was designed in _4870 and yes definitely plan to improve that for tokens further _4876 i don't personally work on slp stuff is there anybody else that wants to _4879 speak to that so i don't personally develop on that either but i just want _4886 to make a make a little bit of comment on the second part of the question so _4891 yes we are aware that slp the scene of slp tools and _4899 infrastructure is not in a very good shape and but on the other hand slp as a protocol _4911 will never actually stop working like it it just cannot it just cannot do that _4918 as a as a protocol and especially because it is also carried by _4924 the bitcoin cash chain so there are many there are many tools that continue to _4930 work today such as the bchd indexer the the bitcoin verde indexer and the _4941 wallets like electron cache slp to a lesser to a lesser extent and i think there are a _4947 couple other rpc wallets that would that those would continue to work _4954 [Music] so whether those things will be _4958 improved is up to the maintainers of those pieces of software i'm not _4966 i'm i'm not sure people in this channel are are good _4971 are good sources of information of their intentions but one thing i can say about _4975 it is that when cash token comes online it might be easy it might be easier to support _4985 migration from slp to cash tokens if people choose to as opposed to you know _4993 to the sbch sidechain but obviously spca sidechain offers a whole host of other _4999 capabilities that are you know that are unique to the evm chain and _5004 people choose to migrate there for a reason but if they choose to migrate to _5009 cash tokens it is on the same chain so they might have an easier time _5013 so that's all i can comment about this yeah _5017 and on migration it's it's actually very easy to do slp _5023 token migrations to the the cache token primitives so i imagine _5028 i i don't know what the slp ecosystem is is planning for _5035 what the upgrade might look like but it is it would not be very difficult _5039 to to specify a migration standard and the migrations can can happen either _5046 trusted or there is also a a very simple trustless strategy of _5051 migrating the slp egos an slp token to cash show confirmatives _5057 so i imagine what what hopefully what should happen there is if the slp _5063 title continues to be used hopefully it'll be _5067 a migration a migration strategy to use these underlying primitives and and then _5072 slp will will provide some of those higher level standards for what how _5076 people expect it to use them in their wallets and things like that _5080 jerry did we answer your questions yeah yeah you did and i also noticed _5086 chris troutner in the room here he's worked on quite a lot on the on the _5091 slp indexers and stuff so yeah but yeah thanks a lot guys _5098 thank you thank you i see mr fiendish you have a _5105 question for us hey guys how's it going good cool yeah it was great hearing _5116 about cash tokens i think i understand a lot better now so thank _5122 you very much and i think it's you know first of all i'd just like to say i _5126 think it really proves the chip process is a great step forward for the bitcoin _5130 cash community of course it helps that having two great developers that are obviously working _5136 together with bitcoin cash autism jason i guess this helps the process _5140 tremendously but i think it's it's really great yeah my question _5146 is slightly it's linked towards general protocols and json so as i _5151 understand um jason is working for general protocols and i was speaking on the phone to _5159 rolando bryson just earlier today and there was just the the question popped _5163 up about how the funding of this development and research will be affected by the current _5171 drama let's call it that going on with coinflex and smart bch and will this _5176 have any effect on general protocols and also on the further development and _5181 implementation of cash tokens in the may upgrade 223. hey the ceo happens to be here _5189 and i'll say the the cash token work itself is is work that i'm i'm doing _5194 personally um it's it's not being funded by general protocols there are _5201 definitely contracting things i i hope to do with gender protocols that have to do with _5207 cash tokens in the future but for example this month's work on _5211 on cash tokens has been a personal thing wow thank you man wow _5217 yep and just to to answer the question um no they're really quite independent _5223 things the the current kerfluffle an ongoing house fire are really independent from from this _5233 development and i think the end result will be that you know there's multiple ways to do _5240 things but the one we're talking about here specifically is going to be a way to do _5246 things on the bch main chain which has proven over the last how _5253 many years is it now 11 years 12 13 years i don't know it depends on _5260 how many times yeah almost 12 and a half years it could be _5264 quite conservative right and not break and the chip process has further kind _5273 of entrenched that conservativism of you know things are going to work _5278 they're not going to break you're not going to have any issues with _5283 the things that are that you're using so yeah i think the end result will be that _5287 there's multiple options for ways to do things and the ways to do them on the bitcoin _5293 cash main chain are going to be solid as a rock _5299 and but yeah the that's a little bit out in the future and it depends on it _5303 being accepted into bitcoin cash and then it depends on people _5308 developing those applications does that answer your question for _5313 english yeah sure so that absolutely answers my question and also jason death you're _5321 doing this as a side project or voluntary this is absolutely insane to hear and thank _5328 you for your great great work thank you yeah all all proposal work that i've _5337 that i've done all the chip work i've done has been personal i did i've _5340 been doing some contracting with general protocols on on any hedge and and _5345 some of the other very cool things that general protocol is working on but yeah _5349 i do chip work as personal as of yet [Laughter] i love to hear it _5360 thank you so much for all of your hard work and your we we're all better for it _5367 oh i wanted to mention something sure just a point that fiendish made here _5372 which i want to to shoot down in a friendly way is that you know he said _5380 jason made the proposal for cash tokens and he is a developer this is very true _5388 bitcoin cash it's gone bca bca he made this comment just now and i _5394 remember that i wanted to say this made the proposal he's not a developer _5400 right he made this proposal because he understands that the the kind of _5404 fundamental issues and design but he's not a he's not a developer he made _5410 this proposal and you know adapted the original group proposal into what it _5416 is today with with many iterations like very significant iterations of the _5421 design but he's not a developer and i think this is a really key point worth _5426 mentioning that the chip process the way bitcoin cash gets upgraded is _5432 not by developers it's not by developers it's by not _5436 necessarily by developers yeah stakeholders they can buy stakeholders _5440 yes developers are one class of stakeholders in the bitcoin cash _5443 ecosystem and the the the upgrades that happen are they're they're fed out to to _5452 everybody who's involved right exchanges miners developers wallet owners _5457 entrepreneurs business owners all these people they they go through _5462 everybody right they go through all the relevant stakeholders and and the whole _5466 the whole ecosystem chips are not developer documents chips _5472 are upgrades to the bitcoin cash ecosystem and they're not _5479 you know the the domain of developers developers are necessary to do them but _5482 so is economics and so is you know social issues and so forth all of these _5490 things are tied up together so anybody who thinks they have _5495 something very important for bitcoin cash that's what the chip process is for _5501 so so go for it there's no need for you to be the developer to to accomplish _5506 this stuff what's really needed is ownership and people _5511 coordinating and bringing people together to make something happen _5515 but there is some engineering skills involved like i'm impressed by bca is _5520 like you know you have to understand how the blockchain works fundamentally like _5522 as an engineering entity like it doesn't mean you have to know how to program it _5526 so just to clarify but yeah i agree with you the key thing about bca is he he's _5532 kind of the magical package where he he's he's done _5536 everything himself right he's brought all these different aspects together in _5540 one person but that's not necessarily necessary the the key thing that he did _5544 is push it ahead to really really have the angular and make it happen _5549 right the organization and collaboration aspect is what really made it happen _5554 because there have been a lot of ideas there have been a lot of hey this would _5559 be a neat thing to do but in the end what really makes it _5563 happen is organizing it and owning it and making it happen _5567 yeah i mean he's been obsessed with it for like two years or something or a _5570 year and he's taken everyone's comments about it and internalized them thought _5574 about them deeply put them down on paper and then sort of gave it just oxygen _5580 and energy yeah and owned it like you said like organize it yeah absolutely _5583 exactly and jason has done the same he's totally right of course _5589 as well yes yeah both of these people have done the same internalized it sort _5592 of just thought about it deeply and felt it and lived it for a while _5596 yeah yeah all right sorry i wanted to add that for bca's benefit there yeah certainly the the technical _5606 approach over those two years has has shifted entirely multiple times _5612 so such that like each iteration was was almost unrecognizable but it is _5618 really important to have if you're if you're really _5622 if you're really interested in something happening on on bitcoin cash _5628 that that's a a demonstration of just just trying to get people in the room and and _5636 talking about it can help to have it on people's minds so that _5641 when when when people are especially the developers who are _5644 thinking about some of the consensus systems and stuff if it's if it's top of _5648 mind when something pops up that makes it seem more possible for _5655 them they might they might figure out a different strategy that _5660 works really really well in this case it was it was definitely _5665 kind of coincidental and in february that some of the pmv3 work that i had been _5671 working on for a year or so on i the the decentralized exchange designs _5678 i had been working on decentralized exam exchange designs using the pmv3 _5684 proposal and i realized that there were some some primitives that i that i _5689 had abstracted to to work with these contracts and it turns out _5696 in in quite the surprise that if you if you look at them just right they look like _5701 tokens and so i messaged bca and and emmy name and _5707 some of the other people i knew were had been had been talking about tokens for _5710 like a year and a half and said hey i've got a an idea for how maybe we should do _5715 this so that it enables decentralized applications and then i _5721 ground out a spec in a couple weeks there there in february and so the and then _5727 the technical the technical direction changed again very completely but but _5732 the a lot of the the kindling has been there from from _5737 just kind of the persistence the persistence and the bringing bringing _5742 people together to talk about the goal of getting tokens happening that _5749 most certainly helped with the the creative energy there _5755 yeah and i just want i i just want to top this up with _5760 the emphasis that for anyone else who is interested in being such a activist _5766 or entrepreneur that pushes a proposal it is important and in fact very _5773 beneficial to keep an open mind and be really sure what do you actually want to _5778 achieve in the end because very oft because very often what you want to get _5783 is not the same as the details of the proposals that you are pushing _5789 when you push a proposal you will gradually learn that you will _5795 gradually learn from talking to various talented people oh maybe _5800 there is a better way to do to achieve what i want _5804 maybe what i want what i thought i want was not actually the thing maybe i want _5810 something even higher level and there is a completely different _5814 thing that does the same thing or you know maybe i want to change _5819 this or that thing in my proposal or maybe someone else's has the proposal _5823 actually i actually just merged with them so all of these things can happen _5827 and it will they will be extremely beneficial for any activist or _5831 entrepreneur who keep an open mind and that is the benefit of having a _5837 transparent and open process as opposed you know again in the past a lot of _5842 times there is no time and so people get into this life or death that's fine okay _5847 i have my proposal you have your proposal and they do this and they _5852 purportedly achieved the same thing by going through some slightly or _5857 significantly different routes and then we stab each other until one of us died _5862 so yeah we we don't do that anymore no no stabbing please _5870 so just just to reiterate bitcoin cash artist everybody loves you we _5876 we wish you could come and talk but you don't want to that's fine and also _5883 you know in in telegram groups all the time people talk about you know _5888 bitcoin cash should and then we say well go ahead and make a _5892 chip and everybody's you know first response is well i'm not a developer _5897 and this just goes to show you don't have to be _5901 you just have to be somebody who's willing to own this idea and convince _5905 the correct people to work on it and develop it if you really really believe _5911 that it is something that is worth doing and i see we have another speaker _5918 with us jonas would you like to add to the conversation yeah hi can you hear me _5925 yes welcome yes welcome i have one question regarding cash _5930 tokens it was a long time since i read the spec but is there some parts _5936 that is not possible to verify just by an spv wallet _5943 nope fully spp verifiable so spv is simplified payment verification is _5948 specified on satoshi's white paper but yes it means that the light clients _5955 that are fully validating can can fully validate cache token _5962 inputs and transactions using using only the the light wallet _5967 contents they already have so yes fully spv compatible _5972 and maybe i'll go even further spv simplified payment verification and _5977 in general light wallets because there's actually other other strategies _5981 for achieving what spv does light wallets in general are _5986 are a huge awesome feature of of the design of bitcoin cash and and bitcoin _5991 cash like cryptocurrencies a lot of actually a lot of account based _5997 chains cannot really compete with the with the support for lightweight wallets that _6004 bitcoin cash has so that's actually a very that brings up a very interesting _6011 feature set that i think will differentiate bitcoin cash _6015 using cash tokens bitcoin cash with cash tokens can have decentralized _6020 applications they can they're they're very efficient highly scalable very _6024 low fees and also people can interact with those _6028 decentralized applications using very lightweight wallets which is _6033 is different there are for account based chains a lot of the wallets people _6037 end up using are are basically trusted yeah you're asking fbc _6042 yeah yeah obviously you're talking to some company who claims they are running the chain and _6050 that is not the case on bitcoin cash can i just add a little bit because i _6056 know jonas is a developer so conceptually it's just like an extra _6059 field that can go with your utxo so all you know the way you would validate a _6063 utxo that it exists or not in spv right you're sort of given a proof that the _6068 transaction that you're told about was on the chain _6071 it's the same you know that proof applies to the to the token data like _6075 it's just an extra piece of metadata that goes with the utxo which is the _6078 token data so you know you can prove its existence on the chain using the same method that _6084 you would for just an amount right just for utxo just add like technical _6090 nuance to that what about like total amounts of fungible tokens _6099 can those also be verified yes so you would have you would need an indexer for _6103 that and you ask it basically show me the genesis tx for this token and then _6107 you can see the genesis tx you can verify that it existed on the _6111 chain using spv methods you know merkle proof whatever and then you know that _6116 what you saw on the genesis is all there exists to some degree to some degree you do _6122 actually yeah you actually don't need an indexer there because it is spv validatable _6127 because the genesis transaction yeah there's there's actually you might _6133 need an indexer because it's like the previous the previous the thing that _6136 spent the token right it's it's a little bit it depends on _6141 your spv implementation so we use spv to describe what's in the in the in the _6145 satoshi white paper but they're for example like a neutrino _6149 implementation would be able to would be able to look it up from a light _6154 wallet so it's it is not a if you're yeah light wallets should _6160 have no problem looking at the genesis transaction and seeing what the total _6163 supply is though maybe if you are interested in what the _6169 how much of the supply has been burnt then you have to start looking at all _6173 the transactions that involve that token but if all you're curious about is the _6177 original supply first off as a technical detail fungible tokens have a _6182 fixed supply at creation and then yes you can you can look up with several _6187 different lights like light wallet strategies i i want to add on for anybody who's _6194 familiar with slp it can sometimes be a you know very heavy process to be like _6201 oh hey i got this token let me load it up in my wallet and you're like okay let _6205 me wait for two hours while it figures out whether this is a valid token or not _6209 right that that's completely gone from this picture right this is all spv it's _6214 built into the utxo more or less all the information well no _6219 all the information you need to use the token that you have is completely built _6224 into the the coin that you're holding to the the token that you're holding in _6230 whatever wallet you have but if there's like some extra meta _6234 information that you want to know about it you may have to go and get an index _6238 or to tell you a bit about it yeah and i'm happy to follow up on on _6244 technical details further also on the on telegram and on these chat _6249 groups or on bitcoin cash research forums yeah thanks answers my question _6262 thank you very much are there any other questions from the audience _6273 i'll take that as i know in that case i will bring this discussion to an end _6281 if anyone is interested in continuing this conversation feel free to stick around _6288 i will open the floor assuming anyone is interested _6294 otherwise i'd like to thank all today's guests jason dreissner kailyn kaliano imagine a _6300 username john neary thank you for coming today _6304 thank you for your time please follow us on twitter for _6314 the latest updates and if you have any suggestions for future _6319 topics that you'd like to be discussed feel free to ask in the _6326 telegram group which is pch network discussions _6330 thank you very much for tuning in and if anyone would like to talk about any _6339 other topics in the bch universe then i will stick around for a while anyone _6344 who wants to drop off go to bed i know it's quite early for some of you _6348 then please don't feel obligated to stick around _6353 oh sorry so is the chat still gonna be open with voice and everything yeah oh _6356 wouldn't sure thank you all see you later take care everybody _6367 good night bye like i said i triple down on on reinforcing the fact that you _6381 think this is a good idea i'm i don't know how to like i don't know how to _6386 communicate to people what that means you know what it means because usually _6391 when ideas come up right like there's a spectrum of people who are _6395 like oh wow that's really neat we should do it and then there's like the other _6398 end of the spectrum who's like what are you talking about like no _6404 yeah it's funny because like socially yeah i'm like yeah i'm like ultra _6408 conservative socially i'm a liberal i guess in some ways _6411 well i don't know anymore but yeah when it comes to the channel like super _6414 conservative like just no no no it's the default answer unless you can't _6420 which is good and you need some people to do that _6422 which are great qualities to have yeah you need some people to say no just _6426 so you can prove yes to them you know [Laughter] _6430 and that's also the default of this process right it's like oh you have a _6434 good idea no all right yeah but not in an evil way is it really a _6439 good idea which is good i mean you need that because the chain once you change it _6444 once you change the consensus rules it's like forever like so exactly yeah you _6448 have to literally deal with it forever like as long as it just survives you're _6452 gonna have to have even if you turn it off in the _6454 future like yeah you have to like support those blocks in between that had _6457 that rule god damn it so yeah that's why you have to say no sort of _6464 until you can be proven yes yeah and in some of the early designs _6469 right some of the early designs really were not very conservative about how _6473 they worked and you would have to track quite a lot of _6476 detail and so forth where like if you looked at it's like _6481 yeah that might actually impact scalability i'm not sure this is such a _6484 great idea but like the current proposals are so far beyond the originals _6492 or yeah or in the case of of some other prior proposals you asked the _6498 question will it break things yeah it will what will it break a lot of things _6505 everything is that worth it maybe yeah but it's really powerful and it's really _6512 cool yeah no let's not break things please oh actually that's an important not an _6518 important point but you know some people will say oh you're upgrading it so that _6521 it doesn't change things and you can just use the new stuff _6526 does that mean it's a soft fork right because the whole meaning of hard fork _6530 and soft fork and split has just been totally bastardized and i don't think _6534 anybody really understands what those words mean anymore but if _6538 somebody were to say oh is this a soft fork right what would be the answer to _6542 that initially it looks like a software but it's not actually it's like a side _6548 fork i don't know it's kind of a soft work in a way as far _6551 as the note is concerned it's not strictly speaking software _6557 but as far as like the colloquial meaning of software which is what people _6561 understand is a non-breaking change that is kind of invisible to you _6566 in that non-technical definition of soft work which is not technically correct _6570 you could say this is a soft fork in a way but it's not right because also the _6574 term software also has a negative connotation in the bitcoin cash _6576 community so right because to like introduce evil stuff _6582 right yeah the the course development of it is there so this is more like no _6588 if you want to keep the old system you can right if somebody totally disagreed _6593 with this they could keep the old system with absolutely zero interference but if _6597 they want to continue on bitcoin cash or you know on with these rules with cash _6602 tokens then you have to you know you have to choose you can't just do a fake _6606 thing where you're like oh yeah there's these new rules that kind of snuck in _6610 there on people so so it's a hard fork it is a hard fork technically speaking _6615 it doesn't yeah it's not technically like but with like minimal disruption like _6620 exactly yeah like like invisible almost just on the consensus layer it is sort _6624 of a hard fork technically oh okay bca offered a _6628 short note and he said it's a hard fork that breaks only nodes and not other _6632 software that's a pretty good description there yeah yeah that's a _6635 good actually i think would like to participate but they're _6649 pseudonymous they have you know a username they don't attach it _6654 to a real meet space name or whatever and they _6658 just don't want to be on on voice and that kind of thing that's all they do _6663 yeah someone has their hand raised hello ray i had it right yeah _6670 hi guys i just want to say thank thank you for organizing this twitter _6674 space it's re really informative and yeah thank you so much and great line of _6679 speakers a very quick question with regards to increasing block size to _6685 two five six megabytes now i know they're sort of listening to _6690 the bitcoin cash podcast and i noticed that basically i think _6696 that it's currently in testing at the moment um would we have any idea as to when we _6702 potentially may be sort of looking to go live with the 256 megabyte upgrade or _6710 just a just a couple of thoughts so i want to do so i want to jump in a _6715 bit so that is unlike so far that is unlikely to happen in _6723 the next in this cycle that activates may to 223 and because we are you _6730 know we are quite conservative on this regard but in the in a different sense _6735 of conservatism as opposed to you know the btc people that many many of us hate so so _6744 those so that flavor of conservatism is never change anything but our _6751 basically never hard for never change anything but our flavor of _6756 conservativeness is that oh we have a look around and we realized that _6763 if we recklessly change things before they before we fully consider _6770 everything um it is we are a monetary system it's not just like hey okay the no developers _6778 tested the notes the notes are okay okay good let's throw it out _6783 put it put it out there oh well our notes are probably ready for 256 so max _6789 but we look around the place and then we see what we happen to see is that there _6794 are some other chains that i would not name just do it without consultation and _6800 without much deliberation and then their applications break they're the user the _6807 users the services that actually run the monetary system you know people who _6813 actually do business their stuff break they get frustrated they leave which is _6818 a very bad outcome so what we are doing right now is to lay the _6825 groundwork because we needed to start early it is a very it is a many months to you _6832 know year-long process that we need to go to all the critical _6837 infrastructure providers all the critical service providers and test _6842 their software and we already got some preliminary data on the you know some _6848 of them are poorly suited one way or another bottlenecked in terms of _6853 supporting much beyond 32 max and we need to address that and when we make _6858 sure that most of our ecosystem is not gonna just croak upon the first you know 20 mag _6868 block that would be the time to upgrade and i'm i i can't i can't _6874 give a commitment or anything but i'm optimist optimistic that it will happen _6879 in the new that it will happen in the near future yeah _6885 yeah just to underscore what you said so so we we did do that scaling _6890 report i'm speaking for bitcoin cash note now and for fulcrum i guess and it turns _6897 out that yes if you get to that size you have to do some engineering work _6901 otherwise you might see disruption and so given that that's the case that it would _6907 require some engineering work and given that that it's not an ultra seen as an _6912 ultra high priority need you know most of the block the time the _6915 blocks are under a megabyte right but we're not going anywhere yeah _6920 i'm sorry see that again but we're do we're doing the ground _6923 referee anyway we're doing the groundwork for it and and there is _6927 engineering focus that will go in that direction it's sort of this token stuff has been a _6931 higher priority because it unlocks so much that can't be done now _6936 and so we've been focusing on that more because it seems like a more pressing _6940 need but yes we will eventually get to 256 and we're doing the groundwork now _6944 and and yeah that's that's sort of the short answer _6948 that i can give that's brilliant thank you guys so much _6952 that's really insightful too and also really reassuring that you know there's _6955 so much work going on with the testing side of things so thank you thanks for _6961 participating thank you for the question that actually reminds me somebody _6971 i forget who it was but somebody was suggesting a dynamically adjustable block size is _6977 that still a possibility that would be me that is dead _6985 that is that is definitely still a proposal on the _6989 that is definitely still a proposal on the table and sorry i muted so anyway so _7014 that proposed that proposal that an adaptive block size proposal if adopted _7019 would eliminate basically all future questions of whether we are going to _7023 increase block size so that that proposal i personally think is pretty _7028 awesome but we still need to do the groundwork before we do that so it _7033 will be a choice it will be a choice and i personally think it's a pretty good _7036 choice when the time comes [Laughter] _7051 yeah i mean conceptually right like you know if as long as you've removed the _7054 question from the developers right of like can you erase the black slides no _7060 it removes that central point right if the chain can just do itself when it _7063 needs to then that's like the ultimate decentralization right you don't have to _7066 ask the developers to do it just conceptually speaking but _7070 i actually haven't looked at the proposal i don't know the details at all _7079 all right are there any other questions anyone _7083 else want to speak i'll take that as a no _7097 well i guess there's just nothing else to talk about we've talked about _7102 everything there is so all of a sudden _7110 did you guys catch the new kenobi series no i'm just kidding _7113 talking about something completely not related it did i did _7119 i can't believe they killed obi-wan kenobi yeah i know _7131 [Laughter] or did it _7134 maybe on my telegram i see max wants a shout out for some reason so _7144 hey max thanks for joining us yeah max is a good example of somebody who's _7156 actually working hard to use right bitcoin cash as as money in _7161 commerce in local commerce so i respect what he's working on _7169 me too cool all right well i'm going to take off it's very good to spend time with _7175 you guys yes thank you everyone for your time i super appreciate it _7181 thank you we'll do this again soon have a good night everyone _7186 let's take it easy you